El Salvador pirates protest new copyright laws

damn straight- stick it to the man

Poor Bastardos (Wanacos Pirateros)! What they need is to get real jobs instead of selling someone else's work for less than nothing! I believe on making back ups for personal use, but not for resale and making a profit of someone else’s work! I hope that laws there get tougher on the Pirateros! Get them in jail, I bet most of then are bunch of Gurilleros FMLN or AREAN (Gorrilas). Que viva la rebulacion!

And as if real DVDs are going to be sold for that price. This country is NOT the US, in case you didn't notice.

Go El Salvador. F*** the retail prices which rob people of their money.

If retail CD's and DVD's cost about half as much as they do now, I would buy a lot more of them. I just don't like spending two hours of work on an album that might not be any good, let alone four hours of work on a movie thats not any good. [I'm a student making minimum wage] I'm really indifferent about what happens in El Salvador, not to say I don't care about what happens outside the US but it isn't like bootlegging and whatnot doesn't happen here or anything. [Spend a day in New York City and you'll most likely be offered bootlegged material]

hehe I remember when I went to baltimore (for otakon lmao :D) and I was offered The Passion of the Christ....despite the fact it was still playing.... unfortunately I didn't tell her that I could get it myself ;p but I don't cause that's illegal.... support the MPAA!

Maybe if people were not trying to profit from selling movies that they do not have the copy rights to, they wouldn't give us who back up copies such a hard time. But as long as there is crack........

I have a friend in Venezuela. He tells me that when you goes to a mall or any part you sees games, dvds and musics burned in a table and in the other table the original. He told me that is normal and nobody says nothing. He also told me that there already selling games burned of xbox 360.

Seriously, who cares. These gluttons already make millions with their unquenchable thirst for greed. They don't lose money with piracy, because the people who condone piracy in the first place ARE THOSE THAT HAD NO INTENTION IN BUYING ANYWAYS. SO HA! Who gives a *uck twofolds.

If every one in the world thought the way as some of the people who made comments in this thread, no one would be allowed to make any money. If no companies were making money they wouldn't be able to do any research to develope the technologies that the citizens of the world use every day. There would be no movies, musuic on record, tape or CD. There would be no internet, and no video games. No one would have employment at these hundreds maybe thousands of companies around the world. The economies would spin out of control and the world that we have come to love would be forever changed. Just because no one thinks that the movie, music, or video companies deserve to make money. If you owned the company I bet you would sing a different tune. No one is going to do it for free are they. Then there would be no music, movies or games to pirate. That would solve the whole problem. Be responsible for your self.

Its important to consider, that these people had no intentions to buy. They bask in millions of dollars, swim in green, and I doubt that poor countries circulating their stuff will make a difference. Seriously, who cares.

@dysart147, What you are saying makes a nice point, but in my opinion that only applies to economies that are strong like the US, European, etc... In El Salvador, people make an average of $5000 a year. That is less than $100 a week!!! Also minumum wage is 60 cents an hour. Could you imagine paying $24 for a DVD making only that much money and also trying to support your family??? How would you feel about working 40 hours in horrible working conditions doing back breaking manual labor and in return (basically suffering for one week of your life) you get...... XXX: State of the Union!!!! At least highly developed economies it is about 1 to 3 hours per movie and the careers are more service oriented. I believe that the pirating in El Savador is for society's benefit. Items like DVDs, CDs, the internet, TV, automobiles, etc... are luxuries and scarcely available to low income economies and emerging markets. What the pirates are doing is taking some of the luxury goods and making them readily available to the average consumer in El Salvador. If Piracy were to stop, would DVDs cost $3 each or be offered at a reasonable price to those markets?? I highly doubt that. Now, in places like the US, Germany, UK, France, etc..., I am totally against piracy because people in those countries can afford luxory goods wihtout any adverse affects. Also, I highly doubt that the electronics sold in the El Salvador market and those sold in stronger markets are the same. Their DVD players are probably no name brands or knock offs, so why should their DVDs be from Sony or Universal??? I would imagine geniune consumer products like Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Panasaonic, etc..., would cost about double what they cost in Europe, US, and some parts of Asia. I think that it is the governments responsibility to decide which laws are for the benefit of the society and which are for the benefit of the corporations. A decision on enforcing copyright laws should not only be based on a company claiming that they are losing profit. There should be more taken into consideration, like how the copyight laws would benefit their economy, how it will benefit society as a whole, etc... As for the companies, if they think they are losing money in El Salvador, they should completely pull out of that economy. If I were in charge, I would just ban foreign DVDs and CDs, but not make laws against people watching them or woning them, only laws against companies selling them in my country unless if they can do so in a manner that will benefit society.

Here are some more stats on El Salvador taken from the national labor commitee (all numbers rounded to make things look prettier): The average worker will make roughly $450 a month Epenses based on an average family size of 4.3 are: Food: $180 a month Housing: $80 Energy Costs: $24 Transportation: $30 Education: $7 Healthcare: $24 Hygiene: $33 Clothing: $30 Add everything up: savings of $42 a month or about $9.80 a week Based on this number, there is no room for luxury items. Those are for the average sutainable wage worker, not for minumum wage worker. Minimum wage workers only make about $143 a month (or $286 for minimum wage workers), so they would have to live in extreme conditions just to survive.

I can see you point of view JaguarGod, But that is like saying that everyone should have a porsche, and that it is all right to go and steal one if you don't make enough money to buy it. If I can't afford some thing, I don't go out and steal it. The big issue is that people are selling the stolen material. They are making money from stealing. That is what I am talking about. Stealing is stealing no matter how much you make. If the people in El Savador want to download the movie for themselves to watch and not sell it, well that would be understandable. It would be no different than some one video taping a movie from HBO or any other chanel. But once you start selling those tapes, that is a different story. That takes it to a different place. Then you are taking money away from the people who spent all of the money to make that movie. If you are going to download it yourself and watch it and would never have bought it, that is your own choice and the company never would have made any money from you any way. But once it is for sale on the street, then people who might be able to afford it will be buying it at the low cost. These may be people who would have gone and paid for it at the store. And who pay's $24 for a DVD? Go to Walmart or target or some place like that. I don't think I have ever bought a full price movie for my collection. I by the deals and only the deals. That way I can get more for my money. Some one must have some money to be able to do the stealing. Even that cost money. And how could some one make any money selling a DVD at $1? A blank DVD cost more almost that much, even the cheap media. What my point is if it is for your own collection, I don't see a huge problem. If you are making a profit from other poeples hard work and they do not get anything from it, well......How would you feel if it was all of your hard work that was stolen? dysart147 out!

I believe that there are 2 separate issues here. One is the IPO (intellectual property rights) of the person who wrote the book/software or in DVD cases, who produced the film/movie and on the other hand - the right to make some money in a 3rd world country. As clearly indicated by another member - when you make $50-60,000/year - one can certainly afford to buy the "retail" version of books and software and DVD movies. But when youre in a country that (average wage earner) barely makes $1000 per year-then one cannot even THINK of watching - let alone buy a movie. Priorities are different when one is on the verge of basic survival. However, let me ask this? YEars ago when everyone had a turntable and played records (long playing -vinyl) and then selected songs and "wrote/re-recorded" them on casette tapes - was there such a clamor on IPR? Everyone just made/taped them. No one complained. So why the difference now? I think greed is the answer - Profiteers not from street vendors - but from the producers of the movies who could actually sell them much cheaper! Jsut my 2 euros worth....have a good weekend everyone.

@dysart147, You are correct again, but you are actaully describing the conditions before the ban on piracy. Before there was the Porsche (authentic DVDs) and the Kia (Bootlegs), but now there will only be Porsche. What if wherever you are from, they only sold Porsche 911 and they were sold at a slightly higher price than in Stuttgart. There would barely be demand for these and only the richest and most powerful would own a car. Now, imagine if in the same scenario, there is a small shop that builds bootleg Porsche 911's. However, these will not have a Porcshe engine, Michelin tires, or obviously the German engineering. These "Porsches" are being sold at $25,000 though. What would happen is that the rich would still buy the authentic Porsche, but now there is a new market for the bootleg Porsche. These are people that could not afford the Carrera 911, but now have the opportunity to own a car, and one that is almost the same. You are also correct about Walmart having deals on DVDs, like XXX being $12 and then there are those bargain bins for $5.50 per DVD, but these are prices for the US. Prices overseas are always more than in the US. $24 would probably be the price for a new release and I am thinking they would not drop below $15. I say this because there would be such a low demand for authentic DVDs that it would drive up the prices in those markets. I would still think that in markets where bootlegging/pirating is out of hand, it is because the consumer cannot afford the authentic product and either the corporation has to figure out a way to meet the needs of the market, or pull out of it completely. I am sure that the companies can figure out a way to produce movies that will be cheaper than a normal DVD. They can maybe use an open source audio and video format, not include menus or special features, etc... Then, they can maybe even fit a movie on a CD rather than a DVD.

Look, you can´t talk about millions of dollars in countries like El Salvador. And not all kind of piracy is illegal. Yes, they are poor people.

Cars and dvds are totally different things. I know if my mate bought a brand new Porsche and I could go around to his house and copy it for free I dam bloody would.

Now everybody here seems to be judging left and right about if it is wrong or right and some just dont give a F*** about it.Most of you are doing it sitting comfortably in a nice chair in a nice room and with a brand new computer. But the point here is that maybe in your comfort and your "busy " lifestyle that allow you to have so much time to be in front a computer comfortably judging others you are just missing the point that not everybody have this great benefit of yours.In a country like El Salvador ,Venezuela ,Colombia(and I been there), the priorities of people are very diferent. The most important thing is not always playing with your computer or"backing up"your latest"bought" dvd or cd,because when your wage barely allows you to buy food you are not thinking "Oh that poor billionare company that these guys are stealing from".Your priorities are totally changed ,and if someone selling this dvd's can make a living or maybe put a little of amusement for some hours in a miserable way of life,its worth more to them than the fact if they are stealing or not. Yes, stealing is wrong, but there's more than one here that would steal to give their family food if it were the only way or even the easy way.Its easy to talk when you have had everything pretty easy. You dont know what is hunger and real poverty, and when you dont know where are you going to eat or sleep tomorrow, you think and act differently.And stop daydreaming about comparing porshes and others cars. In this countries a car ,even the cheapest one in the US is banned from the common people. Few can buy a car or even a bicycle.So why keep judging and fighting over a situation that you dont really know or have lived? What is wrong or right is diferent according where you live and your priorities.Have you notice that in every neighborhood there's someone who sells drugs? That is highly illegal and also kills people and make puppets and thieves of the ones who use them,it damages more the economy of the entire society in the robberies,money from the goverment that come out of your tax pocket to help the drug addicts,etc,but I dont see people organizing and going to your local ganster and taking him out for damaging your neighborhood or even your sons???? Our priorities as Americans have gone too low when we worry more from the loss of some multimillion company that already gained what they had budgeted they will earn in first place for the movie/music cd/etc than for the very lives and health of our sons ,neighbors and even our neightbors from other country.America was not born yesterday and came into being with all we have. We once where a "third world country" too. And thru the help of many, and the abuse that we commited against others is that you and me can sit back and relax with that wonderful dvd that you just burned.

you got that right raziel,

Most people who pirate WOULD NOT or COULD NOT buy the origional in the first place so no money is really lost. Does that make it alright? No. The incentive to spend the money is directly tied to the priviledge of ownership or viewership. However, one can view piracy as the 'black sheep' of the 'free market' economic family. If more people are stealing an item instead of buying it, or buying a reduced cost stolen/copied item instead of a legal one at retail, then obviously the retail price IS NOT the price that would be determined in a true supply and demand market. Now, it may be that the owner of the product does not wish to sell the item at the 'true' market value. Normally this would result in a competitor coming to market offering a like item at a reduced price which would then force the previous owner to reduce his price as well. Maybe even to reduce it more than the new competitor is selling the alternative item at. However, we have allowed a concept of Copyright and Intellectual Property to actually PERVERT the free market society that so many in the Western world endorse! As such the idea of competition when it comes to media is totally lost. Drug Company 'A' brings spends money and innovation to bring a new drug to market. We TEMPORARILY reward them by granting a TEMPORARY monopoly and they sell it for whatever they can with no competition. But after a set amount of time the monopoly on THAT item ends and others can step in and make AN EXACT COPY of the same drug. They don't get to label it with the same name but the essential components of drug are the same (per U.S law) we call them generics. But we do not let this happen with media and in fact it can't happen in the same fashion as other products because of the very nature of it's components. Those being the actors, or the singers, the director or composer etc etc. So for media the only way to equal the playing field if you will IS piracy of the origional content. Also the time to recoup losses for media content is not anywhere near as long as for drug companies or other manufactures. Granted some media doesn't sell as well as the providers planned and so they may take longer to recoup.. but that is not the 'markets' fault but only their own poor judgement of their product. Nowadays Hollywood doesn't look to the theaters as their profit but only as part of their marketing stragety. They plan on the worldwide DVD sales to really turn a buck. And in reality this makes perfect sense. Even a bad movie can be profitable on DVD due to the fact that while the movie may only last 3 weeks in the theater it will be available on the store shelfs as a DVD for a long time to come. Like 'The Producers' Hollywood has discovered that you REALLY CAN make more money on a 'flop' than a hit but when the hit does come IT EXPLODES... all because of DVD sales (and rental royalties). Sidenote: When Hollywood talks about how much money they are loosing and how many less tickets are being sold they NEVER MENTION the bottom line. That bottom line is how much more they are making because of the DVD's. And then they blame the 'pirates' for this lost money and empty seats at the theater instead of the future release of the DVD as the culprit. Why do I not go to the theater but maybe a few times a year? Because for most movies I look at the commercials and day to myself "instead of paying a lot of money to see it now (and in an often uncomfortable environment with overpriced concessions!) I'll wait until it comes out on video, save some money and probably enjoy it just as much if not more! When I just can't wait for the DVD I break down and go to the theater. If I KNEW that the only time in the near and not so near future that I could see these movies was at the cinema then I probably would go more... and also I would probably get pissed of more because I wasted a ton of money on a bad movie! But anyways, as I was saying, the price (or very near to it) that the pirates are selling 'their' products for is quite probably very near to the TRUE MARKET PRICE of the item the only thing stopping the AUTHENTIC item from being sold at that price is the fact that the content provider has a perpetual monopoly on that content no matter how much profit it has returned. If the Content Providers actually participated in the free market where they do business then their prices would drop accordingly until equilbrium was reached (and the pirates market share which would always exist would however greatly be reduced and impaired). But the Content Providers prefer to ignore the basic principles of capitalism and the free markets; instead choosing to embrace a perverted and twisted form where the market only consist of THEIR 'authorized' product and it is certainly no where near free!

this is what happens when you live in a crappy country with a crappy goverment it is called if you cannot afford the dvd or game for real then don't rip off the companys and don't own a dvd player or a computer then

I read all of your comments and I really proud of all of you for thinking about the little guy (el Salvadorians) however who buys these pirated DVD's if the locals can't afford the technology? US meaning foreigners that do business in El Salvador. Maybe there are a few well off individuals there that can buy players and that kind of technology but I doubt there would be enough of them to keep the pirateers in business. I have a family member that has $$$ and travels all around the world doing busines (the lucky stiff) and he buys these DVD's from all over including Japan at about $3. each. He bringings them home and his family enjoys them. I wonder if we would feel that it is OK for anyone to pirate our work and undersell us on our own market. I know the prices of DVD's are outragous and they are making money hand over fist. But what if you we the guy making the original DVD's would you feel the same? Or how about if some poor illegal alien needed a job and they gave him yours because he would work for less money? I am a college student too. I am living on my student loans and no grants. The point of college is to get the better jobs that pay the bigger bucks right? So what if Joe or Jose or Sami comes to this country illegally or legally (it really doesn't matter) but because his need is greater he will work for half of what you get, complain less, and work longer and harder than you do. How would you feel? Wrong is wrong, the end never justify the means. Stealing is stealilng. It's just that cut and dry. I am very sympathatic to people in other countries that are poor, but I am more sympathetic to people in this country that are poor and go to bed hungry. If your going to feel sorry for people how about a little sympathy for our own. How about we let them pirate movies and make a few bucks. Which movies would you buy then? We all know how good the technology is for copying movies. You can't tell the difference between the good and the pirated. So tell me true, would you pay $19.99 or would you buy the copy for $5 or $3. I'll be honest, I'll buy the copy. But are all of you as honest with yourselves? You can't say it's alright to do something in one place and not in another. Morality doesn't have borders or does it? Thanks for your ear msnevbill

@msnevbill, You make a good point as well. To answer your question about pirated copy vs original, I for one would rather own the original for a DVD that is worth owning. For bad movies, I would only buy an original or copy for $1 or less. Obviously the copy will not be available at $1, so that means I will have to find the original at a flea market or something. Now, if your family member is going around buying these sort of things elsewhere, he is doing something wrong, but how many people do you know of that will spend $500 to travel to El Salvador to buy a bootleg movie for $3?? Sure if they are already there they will do so, but these are people that are thinking along the lines of..."This is the same garbage that costs $15 at Walmart or $6 to rent at Blockbuster. I might as well just spend $3 since I am here and take this home and watch it with my family or on the flight home." This may be wrong, but these are people that at the most would have only rented the movie, but not purchased it. As for the technology to play the DVDs, El Salvador and lots of other places have bootleg players as well. These will cost about $10 to $20 and be good enough to play a DVD. Given that DVDs will cost $3 each to them, $10 to $20 is not too much for someone that wants to make their family happy. Also, like I have been saying, if they think piracy is a bad thing, then they should just completely pull out of the market in these high piracy countries. They will not do this however, because they still do make profit and that is all that matters, but they want to suck every bit of profit they can out of an economy, even if they do this by harming consumers. My general mission statement was/is to offer the highest quality products at reasonable prices and in a way that benefits society as a whole. This included the company and the consumer.

What I referred to is happening in whatever country people live in. And just because companies/people CAN do something doesn't mean that it is right to do it. I was addressing the bigger conversation on what protections should be provided for content providers. Very few industries receive as much protection as copyright and IP laws provide media moguls. And again, yes, some of these differences cannot be reproduced because of the fact that the content consists of performers and listening to John Lennon sing 'Imagine' is quite different than listening to ME sing it. Watching ME star in a movie is quite different than watching Johnny Depp... It is this very nature of origionality that effectivly creates a monopoly. Why? Because when you want to see Titanic you WANT TO SEE the award winning performances and sets etc of the origional... not Me and Julio down by the schoolyard performing it. And so, in effect, each individual movie, song etc is an effectual monopoly. Now it is true that at a certain point others can sing that song, and others could make a new version of titanic and those versions may do just as well if not better... And as is the case with all monopolies they are regulated to incorporate the benefits and needs of society as a whole. This is also what copyright and patents do. Balance the monopoly created by these protections with the needs/benefits of society asd awhole. However, lately we have been moving away from the consumer/society protections and interest instead focusing on the interests and protections of the few people involved in the business. Am I saying that piracy is the answer? NO. I am saying that something needs to be done. And I am saying that these companies because of the nature of their product are able to disregard market forces because they have no competition on a title by title basis. Choices are better for an economy than no choices. And regardless of right and wrong we also have to look at the economies of 'black market goods' and how they interact with the regular visible economy. If for example media sales were 11% of an 'economy' and 1% is produced 'legally' the removal of that other 10% can have devastating impacts on the broader economy. While I am sure that media doesnt make up 11% of El Salvador's GDP the point is valid. As these sellers and producers of the illegal content would no longer have the ability to buy other items which causes other businesses to lay people off since sales are down, which makes more people not have money to spend which further reduces sales more layoff etc etc And no.. I am not validating piracy or encouraging it. Only stating the broader picture. And the fact that individual interest MUST be weighed against societal interests.

jaguar... good point! They are making them available because even with the piracy they still come out ahead.

So who is wrong? The person (like my family member who buys 100's of DVD pirated in Japan) who frequently buys pirated copies of movies or the people who make the copies, or the movie company who over charges for their product? Do we prosecute the John or the Hooker? It is all the same thing. Supply and demand, if there is someone out there willing to pay for it, there will always be somewilling to supply it for a price. Aren't the crooks exploiting the general public the same as the big time movie moguls? Or is it just that one deals in dollars and the other billions of dollars? You can buy copies right here in the good ole USofA. What's the excuse here? I wouldn't put a person in jail for stealing food to feed his family, but I would put a person in jail for lining his pockets illegally for making money coping someone elses work (movies).. If I don't like the price of a movie ticket then I won't go to the movies. If I think renting or buying movies are too costly then I will wait until they come on TV. Oh by the way speaking of robbery, remember when TV was free???? I got a membership at the local video store, they cahrge me one fee every month and I can rent all the movies I want for NO extra money. As soon as my contract with DISH runs out I am cancelling. I will watch NBC, CBS, and ABC (free TV) and when I want a movie I will rent one. I am sick and tired of paying for something that is useless and I never watch. All my favorite shows are on the major networks, anything else I can get at my local (national chain) video store. Sorry I got off on a tangent there. thanks for your ear msnevbill

Well, the purpose of copyrights and patents is "to promote the Progress of Science [knowledge & learning] and useful Arts, by securing for limited times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." This is taken from the US constitution. Basically, copyrighting was used to protect society from monopolies and censorship. What is happening now, is that the MPAA and RIAA are using the copyright law in order to secure a monopoly and this can hinder progress. So who is wrong??? Everybody.... The government who allows the companies to manipulate and abuse the copyright laws to ensure a monopoly... The company who manipulates the laws to their advantage and hinder the progression of technology... The consumers, who support the companies by buying their products. The Pirates who create their own product for sale without the permission of the author. The other consumers who support pirates by buying bootleg movies. As for who do you arrest, Joe or the Hooker... That depends on whether you live in Nevada and in a town of under 400,000. Prostitution is legal there as long as you own a license to operate a brothel and you follow the guidelines. Actually, I would say arrest the prostitute for tax evasion and also have him/her tested for disease and also charged for spreading disease if positive. Why should Joe be arrested??? Sex is not illegal. Giving someone money is not illegal. I wonder why combining the two is illegal?? I understand why you brought that up, but they are different types of moral issues. In both cases, both parties are wrong, but you have to also think, why are these people being put into the morally challenging situations???

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I am sick and tired of paying for something that is useless and I never watch

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raziel_71, I second your opinion.

I guess that this is one of those moral questions then? Some people feel that it is ok to steal and make a profit from it, and some don't. I guess that if you are starving and need to feed your family, I would do anything that I had to. Not comparable with watching movies. I do have to question on the other hand the fact that people who live in these "third world countries" can't afford to buy their familes food would have a dvd player. Where did they come up with the money to buy that? All said, making a profit from stealing is wrong, no matter who you are. No matter what any one says, that is my belief. We are all entitled the at least that in life. And for all doubters out there I was not born into this world with a silver spoon in my mouth. I have had to work hard, very hard to get where I am today. I have wondered where I was going to sleep and where my next meal was coming from before. I was just lucky enough to be born in a country where I could apply myself and make a decent life for myself and my family despite my begining.

I know about prostitution because I live in a town in Nevada where the Chicken Ranch is, and the prostitutes here get checked regularly and have health cards all according to the law. No diseases spread here, or so they say. I have never been inside of a brothel myself. As for my comment about not watching usless programing yeah I said it very badly, but you all know what I meant. I still have to live up to my contract until it expires and then kaput! out it goes. You are all right, there are so many ways to look at it. We could go on forever about morality regarding stealing. Thank you for the intelligent feedback. It is always go to talk to people that can argue without getting nasty etc. Thanks again msnevbill

We are seeing a technological consequence of the digital era. The audio and visual arts distributors predicted disaster because digital devices make flawless copies. The old practices of copying vinyl to cassettes, or worse, cassettes to cassettes, or even of high quality reel-to-reel recording from F.M. radio never produced enough quality to threaten the publishers of the original material. If movie piracy were confined to copies stolen by home video cameras, this would remain no serious threat. And nobody anticipated the ease and speed with which the Internet would make the conveyance of stolen material possible. Now copies that cannot be discerned from the original are commonplace. I reject the arguments that theft is a reasonable practice for impoverished countries and peoples. It dishonors the value of their lives, and reduces them in a form of class bigotry to the ignoble roll of parasites and leeches. They need their standard of living raised, not their standard of civilized behavior diminished. The pirates are using their wares as lures to get poor people to buy something they shouldn't waste their money on in the first place. They need it for necessities and to save to invest in their own futures. Moreover, as a country's economy and standard of living increase, local artists who would like to start a local film or recording industry will be hard put to recover their investments, much less make a living at it if piracy is the accepted norm. The result will be pirated copies of first world western cultural influence will abound and local culture and character will be supplanted. I’m sure many modern marketers actual enjoy having this kind of influence on other countries, but it isn’t healthy. In the absence of piracy, I expect the major distributors would notice they weren't making any money in poor countries and would do exactly what the drug companies do, and sell at lower prices in those places. Not as low as street vendors, but some brakes on first world western influence are a good idea, I think. I’ve know three American families over the years who rid their homes of televisions when their children were young. These kids had to resort to reading newspapers and books. The quality and quantity of information acquired reading is greater than if the same time is spent with any other medium. The children from all three families became high honors students with scholarships to Ivy League schools. Developing nations need that kind of education more than a movie or video game. Their futures depend on it. Someone will no doubt call me for making judgments about what a different culture needs and what is good for it. If you are an apologist for piracy in these places, then look in the mirror and ask yourself just who’s being judgmental about what is good for whom? Condo

In the ten commandments, its written thou shalt not steal... But to my recollection, it didn't say thou shalt not steal something intangible like data... The point is this, these companies who produce movies and games, have money, and just because some empoverished boy or girl in El Salvador decides to copy it, there is a Mother trucking crisis?! OH! Spare me the bullshit and these fallacious EPIPHANIES! If you guys have ever been to Mexico, and had the chance to come accross pirated stuff, YOU KNOW THATS ITS NOT THE HOLY GRAIL OF ALL COPIES OF MOVIES AND GAMES. Who would buy it, less it be by an act of mercy or pity towards that person... The point is this, you aren't hurting anyone if you are in El Salvador, rich people don't stop eating their caviar and sipping their martini's just because some El Salvadorian stops to copy their product... Oh Martha! Another El Salvadorian copied a game or movie, oh no! We will lose our Ferrari if this continues or even worse our Concorde!! Oh dearest me... If a monopoly shows up in a poor country, what do you expect, rags to riches! ha! lol All this bullshit makes me want to do a colon cleansing.

@Condo, You are correct, but the companies already "tease" these people with something that they know the people will want to own, but cannot afford. This is what opens the market for piracy. If the DVDs were never sold there in the first place, there would not be any piracy, because the initial product would not be available. Also, those who steal it are not as bad as those who profit out of the misfortunate as long as the stealing does not hurt anyone. In this case, the stealing is one of the reasons that DVDs are so popular. There would be no market in El Salvador if not for the pirates, but now there is a market for DVD Players, DVD Media & some DVDs. Oh, and do not forget who supports the low standard of living there. It is always foreign companies like Walmart (talking about econimies outside of the US) who take their factories (usually clothes), and pay them 7 cents to make a $30 shirt. I am sure there are some electronics being made there as well and possibly even DVDs. Sure they create jobs, but they do not pay them enough to survive. I think these people deserve to be able to relax and watch a DVD if it is available to them. Rather than making or offering a product to meet the needs of the market, they are only offering a product that will not be affordable to anyone except the few rich and the pirates. I like what you said about the televisions being removed from a household, but I assure you that only reading can cause serious health effects. Over-reading can lead to future vision problems, nothing serious here, but it is better for this to kick in at a later age. Also, there have been studies that show that the reading position is a very un-natural position. It causes strain on many muscles of the neck and jaw. Over-reading can possibly lead to arthsitis of the jaw, tendenitis of the jaw, back and neck pains, headaches, and in extreme conditions it can cause paralysis of facial and neck muscles and damage to nerves along with minor, but permanent disfigurement. I am totally for removing TV for children, but I would definately not force them to read more than half an hour at a time or without either a neck brace or some type of stand for the book/paper to promote proper reading posture. I guess I went off a bit to the side, but that can be useful, so I will expand on it a bit. Over-reading especially in an improper position can be considered a repetative stress injury. So, I guess the message here is, if you are doing something and you feel some type of pain or discomfort, take that as your body telling you that you are doing something you should not be doing. Signs of injury caused by reading include; eye strain, dizziness, loss of concentration, pressure on the jaw, slight pain in the throat and discomfort of the neck. When you feel any of this, stop reading (also typing, playing games, watching TV, etc...) and relax either by taking a walk taking a breather on the bed, strecth, etc... If not, next comes, stress on the neck & jaw, minir tingling, a slight feeling of light headedness (goes along with a loss of awareness), eye twitching, lower back pain, increased pain in the neck and twitching of muscles on the face, temples, neck and upper back. "Enduring" this is what can lead to something bad happening. I am glad to hear however, that those children grew up to be succesful. I actually went through High School and undergrad without cracking open a book and got very high marks and ended up knowing more than a vast majority of the university (sometimes more than professors) even in classes unrelated to my major like Phsychology & Chemistry, but especially in major classes relating to mathematics like Calculus, accounting, and every Finance course I took. Generally, you learn about 10% or so of what you read and about 40% or so of what you do, but I would not only do, I would teach as well, and that is the trick to learning something. TV is overall detrimental to our society, but the boom in technology and the adopters of it, have sort of forced it on the majority of the population. It is rather difficult to find children or young adults doing outdoor activities that are not related to gangs or work. In the summer, all I usually do is work on the garden or grill. Sorry for rambling on, but it is late and I have not eaten in about 10 hours and have only had some celery today and that has pretty much no nutrition. This is a very nice thread though and I love reading everybody's opinion and contributing myself. Also as msnevbill stated, the feedback is intelligent!!! This spurs more replies and those are very interesting to read:)

"If the DVDs were never sold there in the first place, there would not be any piracy," That statement is a ridiculous. Of course there would be no piracy. There would be nothing to pirate. That is what makes morals. It would not be very hard to not steal something tht wasn't there to steal in the first place. It is a choice that people make. It is the difference between right and wrong. PROFITTING FROM STEALING IS WRONG!!! There is no argument for this that makes any sense. It is wrong and every one knows it. And... "But to my recollection, it didn't say thou shalt not steal something intangible like data... " Well that is the dumbest thing I think i have heard well....ever. If you need to have every item listed in the 10 comandments that should not be stolen then you may have a problem. STEALING IS STEALING. Now we all now it is a question of morals. So what is it with people trying to justify stealing. It is not food or clothes for their family. I would wager that most of the people doing the priaating do not even have a family to support. I think that this sends a message to all. If you steal our stuff, we are going to come and get you no matter where you hide, unless your name is Bin Laddin. LOL And if the people do not stand up and say that they want more money for the job that they do, they will never make the money that they need to earn in order to provide for their families. We call it a strike or a sit down in the USA. It works pretty good if every one participates. Just my opinion, and you know how those are. They are like noses, every one has one.

@hot_ice, It is also funny to hear about Mexico and Piracy. That is where lots of DVDs are pressed now. I wonder how much those people get paid... Bringing the 10 commandments up, only shows that every person is immoral. Commandments 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, & 8 are almost always being broken. The second: "You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above...", is broken by just about everybody. This one forbids the worshipping of other gods, but so many worship the almighty dollar!!! I will definately not get into this though. Also, it forbids the creation of icons, crucifixes, etc... which you find in every church, in peoples homes, in books, etc... However, the stealing of intangible items is interesting. If you watch a movie and can recall it exactly and picture it in your head just the same as you are watching it, would this also be considered stealing?? Perhaps they will use eyelid DRM to erase our minds after all. Also, the laws are a litle strict with media, like only being allowed to watch with one other individual and on a certain amount of DVD players etc... Did you know that colon cleansing can be beneficial to your health?? There are lots of foods that we intake that our body does not break down properly. This tends to build up on our intestinal walls and can lead to problems like bloating, fatigue, improper absorption of nutrients, being overweight, etc... An alternative to cleansing would be a change in diet, but I am not sure what foods will help clean out a system. Definately increasing raw vegetable intake, possibly eating sea weed, and increasing fruit comsumption and lowering the amount of fatty foods, meats and dariy. It is also possible that drinking water from Calrsbad (City in the Czech Republic) may help as that is rich in Magnesium. As the ancient Greeks said though, "Pan Metro Ariston" (roughly translated, "All things in moderation"). @dysart147, You missed the point of my statement. The companies wanted piracy and that is why they sold the DVDs there. I mean think about it. If you own a company and make a product that sells for $15 to $25, would you bring your product into an economy where the average worker cannot afford to buy a meal??? I would not... Not only is that immoral, it is also bad business. However, if you know that there will be a market for piracy, then you also know that there will be some market for the original. There is also a chance that they are getting royalties from the DVD Media. If I were to enter that market, I would offer a cheap alternative, but the powers that be make that illegal in the case of DVDs, otherwise it would ruin their monopoly. Why is it that there is only one choice for movies now. VHS is no longer being supported, and either way, that format became more expensive than DVD. Why doesn't anyone create a cheap alternative using an open source codec like XviD and some open source audio format ogg vorbis or whatever (not familiar with the open source formats myself). I know that temptation is what leads to morals, but is moral to deny our temptations??? I will leave that one alone as that is more of a philosophical question and not one that has a definate answer. In times of need however, morality tends to go away and you follow instincts. You stated that "Stealing is Stealing" and that is correct. That country is one where there is a good amount of crime, whether it is stealing food or pirating movies. If you have already compromised your moral values by stealing food, what difference will it make if you steal a DVD?? Making the two separate will create a scenraio like "it is ok to ..... as long as ...." This is not good and you can always come up with an excuse to break any of your morals. Deep down, people are nothing more than dumb beasts. The only advantage we have over other animals is strength and dexterity in our hands fingers. Take that away and we would be just like the Pan paniscus. Now, for strikes, that does not always work even in the US. in the 1920s & 1930s, there were lots of people that did not have work. These were mainly farmers and sharecroppers. When they eventually found some type of manual labor the wages were barely enough to support them. What happened is that sometimes they would get to gether and strike. What happened, the employers found new labor and shot the leaders of the strike. Plain and simple. You cannot compare the US, a country that has a strong government and powerful labor unions to a developing country. In El Salvador, a strike would mean death to the workers and their families, even if they would not be shot. How long can they live without food, two weeks, one month??? And it would do nothing to Walmart but make them laugh. Walmart is infamous for trating their workers badly. There were even some cases where they would lock in the cleaning crew overnight so that they would not steal anything. Even now, a strike can be bad. You usually do not see strikes in areas where the people who work do so for survival. They are usually associated with greed in the US like those poor community college teachers who make a measly $95,000 a year for teaching 12 hours a week and only get 3 months off in the summer. They thought is was inhumane to work an extra 3 hours a week and went on strike demanding less hours and a raise.

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If you steal our stuff, we are going to come and get you no matter where you hide, unless your name is Bin Laddin.

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@dysart "Well that is the dumbest thing I think i have heard well....ever." One word, Floccinaucinihilipilification. I cannot follow the general tenor of your argument due to the inconsistency betwixt the perpetuation of morals and condescending nature of your statement. Logic would dictate that this "contradiction" is nothing short of hypocrisy. "If you need to have every item listed in the 10 comandments that should not be stolen then you may have a problem." Anything short of a bachelor's in psychology would invalidate such an assessment. I beseech you, keep your blundering conclusions to yourself. @JaguarGod Actually, being told you are full of shit is a good thing!!! As I was watching "the propaganda box" (the television), there was an interview with a doctor, and he uttered powerful words:" Death starts with the colon." I only realized the full implication of his statement when I did some background research on Elvis Presley's health. Apparently, Elvis had between 45-60 pounds of compacted trash such as toxins and etcetera within his colon! Therefore, cleansing your colon is a must for healthy living. Once done, I suggest you do a flexible sigmoidoscopy exam to see if everything is right where it should be in the "chocolate factory"; excuse my metaphor. hot_ice

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Elvis had between 45-60 pounds of compacted trash such as toxins and etcetera within his colon

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@jaguargod I heard that colon cleansing isn't the only solution to healthy living. Believe it or not, 80% of all diseases come from our water from the fosset!! Take a look at our piping system which distribute our water on a daily basis...Sure, it doesn't look suspicious, and you would think that are pipes are clean like a whistle! Wrong. If you would extract a single foot of piping, you would come to see the horrible gunk and crap that builds up in there! These are toxins and make us ill! Does water conduct electricity? Fairly simple question, but the answer is no! It doesn't! It is the metal remnants (such as lead) that makes electricity possible to be conducted in our bodies and effectively electrocute our asses into the next life! If anything, I suggest a reverse osmosis machine, or any water purifying machine capable of removing 99.9 % of residual remnants in the water. I've tasted pure water (or close to purity) only once and I was shocked to find out that it tasted sweet!! Stay away from foods made with hydrogenated oils (causes cancer), sugars (causes fatigue, weight gain), chocolate (removes the zinc in your body, which effectively makes normal unprocessed foods, such as whole wheat bread loses its taste!) highly refined foods, fast food chains. Eat sensibly. Infrared saunas are a great way of removing toxins afflicting your body: believe it or not, the toxins come out of the pores of your skin when you sweat. Perhaps not all toxins, but any toxin thats out is better than none at all. Have lots of sex, but only where there is mutual love within a relationship (or else it may damaging to your mental health). Coitus actually facilitates the exchange of bacteria amongst partners, making our immune systems stronger! (my excuse for premarital sex! Science lollol) There are alternatives to healthy living, just find one that is suitable for you. *uck I love tangents!

*uck I can't type for shit either tonight! Must be my insomnia due to my exam tomorrow. shit!

hot_ice, "In the ten commandments, its written thou shalt not steal... But to my recollection, it didn't say thou shalt not steal something intangible like data... " If that is not hypocrisy then I do not have the same definition as you do. And I still think that is the dumbest statement I have ever heard. Until you typed... "Anything short of a bachelor's in psychology would invalidate such an assessment. I beseech you, keep your blundering conclusions to yourself." If you do not even understand the words that you pick out of the dictionary arbitrarily "Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle" how can you consider my coments blundering? Maybe you could give us all the definition that you are using. That way we will all be able to understand what you are talking about. Or maybe the school you go to will give you your money back. I don't think that you are getting what you paid for if you can't see the hypocrisy in what comes from your own mouth. And I would like to congratulate you on completing the entire collection of "Ways to Enrich your Word Power" from the Readers Digest. If you are trying to impress me by typing the biggest words you know, save it. I am not impressed. I have a copy of Webster's as well. Floccinaucinihilipilification - "an act or instance of judging something to be worthless or trivial" Great word, I would say that was a $50 word, but you used in the wrong context. If you want to use these big words, you should at least make sure that you use them correctly. And just so you don't have to pull out you dictionary here is another word you need to know the meaning of Hypocrisy - "The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness. An act or instance of such falseness." If you are going to casualy throw these words around, I suggest you fully understand their meaning. And betwixt......what can I say to that.....you must either be the smartest person in your whole family, or an art major. Intelligence has nothing to do with using big words that you don't understand. But maybe after you grow up and graduate school, get out there in the real world, you might better understand some of this. Keep reading that Dictionary!

But to my recollection, it didn't say thou shalt not steal something intangible like data... " Bending the law without breaking it, is that hypocritical? That's a debate within itself to which I care not to hear or participate in. "You don't know the meaning of the words" Oh! I see! I get it now! We are dealing with Norm Chomsky himself and his superb mastery of language! Bravo,I am impressed! (Hint, there is more than one dictionary out there!) Besides, you haven't considered interpersonal coding...but yet again, you aren't an expert mister 2 cents. Besides, language is my passion. Yes, I am a student AND I DO NOT MAJOR IN ART!!! And oh, follow your own advice, a dictionary in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing...While you're at it, put down your reader's digest as well... What am I dealing with here, a moldie oldie! hehehe hot_ice

hot_ice I am only old, not ancient(depending on your point of view, which changes the older you get. lol). If you doubt about what you wrote in this thread, all you have to do is go back and read it. I copy and pasted what you typed out of your post. I never said that I was a master of language, but then again, I was not the one using words that most people will not understand to make my self look more intelligent. If you think I am stupid, well that is your prerogative. But if I can understand the biggest words that you know? Most people just do not use them in everyday conversations. "And oh, follow your own advice, a dictionary in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing..." what is this coment in reference to? If you could give me an example of where I miss used a word, then I would gladly bow to your highness of the english language. Psych major?

@dysart I don't mean to offend you, and I apologize if I came out a bit "hooliganish" (yes the ish is faulty!) No, I do not think you are stupid. I am not in the business of judging others, I was just weighing your arguments. I wouldn't want you to bow down to me either in any circumstance, since we were all created equally (divine measurement 1:1.618). And I should respect my elders as well. I would rather come out of this conversation as a man with principles than a neandertal. No, not in Psychology either. And by the way, there are many "intelligences", and it is hard to define what intelligence actually is: a test at Mensa won't do the trick either. Intelligence, stupidity, etc, that's open to debate as well.

No, its not, we have a go for hooliganish. Not faulty, what possessed me to type that out, I LACK SLEEP!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

hot_ice I am not offened in any way. That is the fun of these forums, when you meet some one as inteligent as your self, I enjoy the disscussion. Some times you have to push some one to find out what they are made of. And to be quite honest, you did impress me with not getting angry at some of my coments. Most people would have resorted to anger and foul language. It is nice to meet you!! I'll see you around the forums. dice out!! p.s. Engineer major?

No lol not an engineer major! I am starting to think that my field of study is quite unpopular... :O

hot_ice lol

I was planning to take a trip to El Salvador...However, I was warned to stay away due to sociopolitical problems afflicting the country. What a shame. :( My spring break is coming about, and I haven't a clue where to head... Down here in Montreal, its cold and I haven't seen the sun shine for months now... Everywhere else the sun shines!!! Ahhhhh! All Quebec is good for is its poutine, its women, and the friction felt between anglophones and francophones...lollllol

Back in Sociology 101, I had a hardcore Marxist professor who preached avoiding the logical trap of "blaming the victim". For example, poverty is not the fault of the poor or the result of some defect they have, therefore you are wrong to blame poverty on the inaction of the poor themselves. I find this is a useful lesson, but have also discovered it is applied only expediently by the left. If the victim is a large corporation, it is OK to say it is their fault for tempting thieves into action. Never mind that the majority of stock shares are now owned by retirees and pension funds and are no longer the exclusive domain of a bunch of rich guys. It is an easy out to assuage one's conscience by pretending this is just sticking it to the wealthy or to some non-human fiscal entity like a corporation, but it isn’t. Nor am I any longer persuaded by the old leftist rhetorical trick of reversing cause and effect to masquerade as some kind of enlightened world view. Walmart doesn't go into a country and ruin its economy by starting sweat shops. It goes into countries that are already in economic ruin and brings cash. Local sweatshop owners bid to make their products. The governments are happy to see the cash come over their borders because it is more than they had before. It is absolutely true that these factories often have work conditions are terrible by modern western standards. Our own industrial revolution was fraught with dangerous sweatshop labor adjudged from our current perspective. But to suggest other countries not be allowed to go through that economic phase, but must capitalize to modern western standards at the outset of their endeavors? That is too high a hurdle for most. It stifles their ability to enter the world market. It is ultimately an argument that they should stay the way they are: poor. I spent some time working with the World Health Organization's test lab in Cali, Columbia in the early 90's. One lab technician's mother owned a video rental store. Her big complaint was she couldn't get many good Hollywood movies with Spanish subtitles or dubbing. The reason stemmed from the fact Hollywood had written off income from Hispanic countries years before. Anything they got by way of sales south of the boarder was icing on the cake to them. Instead, it was Mexican distribution companies that acquired film rights (cheaply) then paid their own actors and technicians to produce the dubbed and subtitled versions. According to the video store owner in Cali, their choices tended too much toward action and horror movies, and too little toward serious cinema. Presumably the Mexican distributors knew their customers, but Hollywood wasn’t putting any money into translating films into Spanish. Unless the DVD era and the presence of more native Spanish speakers in L.A. has changed this situation, or unless El Salvadorans have all started watching films in English, my guess would be that the pirates in El Salvador are stealing mainly from Mexicans. The poor stealing first and foremost from the poor is an old story. It is one reason stealing should be discouraged as a social value. Another is that it undermines the concept of ownership. A colleague, who set up water purification systems for the WHO in India, said they found that if they gave systems away and let people use the water free, within six months the machinery would be broken down and unsalvageable. Despite the child deaths form dysentery it would immediately prevent, when nobody owned or profited from it, nobody volunteered their busy hours to clean filters or do other routine maintenance. Instead they put the systems in the hands of local businessmen. These fellows came on bicycle every day to fill bottles from the machine which they took away to sell for a few pennies. Under this system the water purification systems were always properly maintained and kept working. I think we all have a generosity impulse to try to fix problems and people by giving them what they need and taking care of them like a big brother. The idea that this does them an ultimate disservice is hard to swallow at first, but looking at the way our U.S. anti-poverty programs have locked generations into permanent poverty suggests it is simply how human beings are. It may not say anything flattering about our species, but it seems to be the case that fostering self-interest and ownership and, implicitly, by opposing the theft of what is owned, we ultimately create the best conditions for improving standards of living. Following that comes improved working conditions, health, and general wellbeing.

"If the victim is a large corporation, it is OK to say it is their fault for tempting thieves into action." Condo I feel you are dishonest, or have been largely misled as to the nature of a corporation. A corporation cannot be endowed with personhood. -------- "To understand personhood we need to look at the history of the 14th Amendment. "The one pervading purpose" [of the 14th Amendment] "was the freedom of the slave race, the security and firm establishment of that freedom, and the protection of the newly-made freeman and citizen from the oppression of those who had formerly exercised unlimited dominion over him." That is exactly what Justice Miller said in 1873 in one of the first Supreme Court opinions to rule on the 14th Amendment. How strange it is then that in 1886 a Supreme Court opinion would establish the principle that the 14th Amendment makes Corporations "persons" for purposes of Constitutional interpretation. The opinion gives no guidance to the reason for this principle. The question was not even argued since Chief Justice Waite announced at oral argument that "The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws, applies to corporations. We are all of the opinion that it does." This opinion has outraged some of the finest legal minds to serve on the Supreme Court. Later Justices Hugo Black and William O. Douglas both wrote opinions saying that this interpretation of corporations as persons should be reversed. "I do not believe that the word 'person' in the Fourteenth Amendment includes corporations." -- Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black (1938) "There was no history, logic, or reason given to support that view nor was the result so obvious that exposition was unnecessary." --William O. Douglas (1949) Not only is it ridiculous to consider corporations to be people, but it is wreaking havoc with our democratic process. A corporation is not a person. It is an artificial entity created by "We the People" and given our recognition through our duly elected State governments. We the People wrote the Constitution and declared in it people's natural rights." ------ Corporations aren't the victims, rather, we are the victims of corporations. Walmart exploits people. Fair and simple. Is it normal that Multinationals, average more GDP than some nations around the world? Walmart grosses an average of 20 cents on every 1$ made in the USA. Which leads me to the conclusion that there should be a limit on profit since "Power corrupts, and absolute power, corrupts absolutely" "But to suggest other countries not be allowed to go through that economic phase, but must capitalize to modern western standards at the outset of their endeavors? That is too high a hurdle for most. It stifles their ability to enter the world market. It is ultimately an argument that they should stay the way they are: poor." That may have been true in the past, but it doesn't apply in today's modern world in the least. The IMF has systematically empoverished dozens of nations around the world and destabilized whole regions with their privatization programs, Bankrolling speculation, etc... (I suggest you read the No-nonsense guide to globalization by Wayne Ellwood) The organizations like the IMF, and Multinations like Walmart ARE EFFECTIVELY STEALING OUR FUTURE. "The poor stealing first and foremost from the poor is an old story. It is one reason stealing should be discouraged as a social value." Corporations have been stealing resources from third world nations for decades now, if anything, can the inequitous promote social values? Nay, its hypocritical praise. "Another is that it undermines the concept of ownership." The concept of ownership is ubiquitous and I sincerely doubt that it substantially undermines it. "A colleague, who set up water purification systems for the WHO in India, said they found that if they gave systems away and let people use the water free, within six months the machinery would be broken down and unsalvageable." If I remember correctly, in India, people dying of starvation on the side of the road for example is a common occurence. Instead of helping these people, they throw flowers at them as a sign of respect and or act of compassion. That is truly deplorable. India as a society can't afford to be individualistic, they should considered a collectivistic approach on the current problems plaguing their nation. Besides, don't expect the poor to help their neighbours out of their misery unless there's a little something in it for them in most cases anyways. "The idea that this does them an ultimate disservice is hard to swallow at first, but looking at the way our U.S. anti-poverty programs have locked generations into permanent poverty suggests it is simply how human beings are." "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." This proverb speaks for itself, perhaps the U.S. has been trying to tackle poverty poorly; ironic. Teaching others how to become a self-reliant and self-sufficient is priceless. However, think about it, you illustrate a common problem as well in the USA... Are we able ourselves to be self-sufficient if a catastrophe of massive proportions were to afflict us? The answer is no, and I think we are being very hard on the people we are trying to help by expecting too much. "It may not say anything flattering about our species, but it seems to be the case that fostering self-interest and ownership and, implicitly, by opposing the theft of what is owned, we ultimately create the best conditions for improving standards of living." Speak for yourself, but don't include others in your largely general categorizations. Hot_Ice yo!

@ Hot_Ice “I feel you are dishonest, or have been largely misled as to the nature of a corporation. A corporation cannot be endowed with personhood. -------- (snip of Supreme Court quotes proving a corporation is not a person) ------ Corporations aren't the victims, rather, we are the victims of corporations.“ Hot_Ice I think because you have no exposure to business practices, you completely missed my point. That a corporation is not a person actually is what explains my point. Not being human, a corporation doesn’t have personal ambitions to own a flat screen HDTV, dine at Chéz Larousse, or vacation in Cancun. It uses money as part of the process of conducting business, but has no personal use for income exceeding what this process requires: the excess profit. So these profits are first taxed, then, what remains goes to the shareholders in the form of dividends. The corporation pays for theft and other losses out of this money, since all the rest of the money is tied up by what is required to keep operating. So the loss comes out of what would otherwise be paid to the retirees and pension funds who now own most of the stock. That is why these are the people actually stolen from, and why it is that stealing from a corporation is not justified by the fact the corporation itself isn’t human. It’s the people that money would otherwise go to that get hurt. “Walmart exploits people. Fair and simple. Is it normal that Multinationals, average more GDP than some nations around the world? “ Hot_Ice You may have to elaborate on this comment. To be communicating in the same language, exploitation isn’t a bad word. If you use college loans you exploit taxpayers as insurers and interest payers during your tenure as a student. I exploit myself every time I go to work for money. We all ultimately exploit of each other’s specialized abilities to provide things. In other words, it is only unfair exploitation that is a moral and ethical problem, not the fair exploitation. As to the sheer volume of corporate income, have you considered that many multinational corporations have more employees than some countries have population, children included? Considering how corruptly and poorly run many nations are, I should be more surprised if it weren’t true that some corporations have larger gross products. I’m not sure what that logical fact means other than that they are larger and/or better orgainized. “Walmart grosses an average of 20 cents on every 1$ made in the USA. . .” Hot_Ice This is what clued me to your lack of business experience. The normal rule of thumb used by accountants is that brick and mortar retail operations break even with 22% gross margin. Out of that 22% come the taxes and fees and, most importantly, employee salaries and benefits. If you think Walmart underpays its employees, then you are indirectly advocating that their gross margin be increased. 40% gross margin is the normal margin for small to medium size brick and mortar retail businesses. If Walmart’s gross is 20% and they still have any net margin left over to distribute to shareholders, they are running very efficiently indeed. Recommended reading: The Wall Street Journal. It may not change your politics, but at you will stay abreast of your enemies’ activities and see how they actually operate. “. . . Which leads me to the conclusion that there should be a limit on profit since "Power corrupts, and absolute power, corrupts absolutely."” What Lord Acton actually said in his famous 1887 letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, was: “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.” I find it a deliciously apropos irony that you quote a credentialed aristocrat in defending a leftist perspective. Historically, both full aristocracies and communist governments deny private property rights and private ownership of the means of production (it all belongs to The State, or it all belongs to The King (who is The State)). Bottom line: they want to control it themselves. Acton, with very unaristocratic candor, was, in particular, warning us of the power of government in the hands of The Great for the reason that government controls the considerable coercive forces of the military and police; not mere financial power. From Hitler to Stalin to Tamerlane, power’s ability to corrupt is a principle indifferent to ideology. Private enterprise generally lacks the coercive firepower, organized crime being the first exception that comes to mind; and it isn’t legal. "But to suggest other countries not be allowed to go through that economic phase, but must capitalize to modern western standards at the outset of their endeavors? That is too high a hurdle for most. It stifles their ability to enter the world market. It is ultimately an argument that they should stay the way they are: poor." Condo “That may have been true in the past, but it doesn't apply in today's modern world in the least.” Hot_Ice Oh, wouldn’t it be pretty to think so? But coming back down to earth, the whole reason China gave for being excused from participation in the Kyoto Accords’ proposed emissions standards was exactly that they can’t be expected to be able to capitalize scrubbers and other emissions equipment at their stage of development. Ditto safety standards. The U.S. had fewer than 30 deaths in mining accidents last year. China had over 5000. Even adjusted for population, the disparity is rather dramatic. “The IMF has systematically empoverished dozens of nations around the world and destabilized whole regions with their privatization programs, Bankrolling speculation, etc... (snip)” The IMF is yet another fine example of a government-created operation and is as incompetent to administer privatization as any other. What’s your point? “The organizations like the IMF, and Multination(al)s like Walmart ARE EFFECTIVELY STEALING OUR FUTURE.” These organizations are nothing alike in operation. Other than it’s administrative exchange rate and trade balance functions to avoid recurrence of the trade barrier triggered depression of the 1930’s, I don’t see any particular use for the IMF either. You’re going to have to get down to details and describe the future we would otherwise have without the major job providing business organizations? This way we will know what is being stolen, exactly? Economics is not a zero sum game, and which resources are most valuable changes with technological paradigms. Things tend to be Important to the world one day and pointless the next. If you’re going to tell me we would have some kind of worker’s Utopia in place of our current structure, that’s an unlikely stretch of the imagination, too. As David Bergland says: “Eutopia is a place where everyone always has everything they want and nothing ever goes wrong. Eutopia is not one of the options.” If you want to see what freedom from commercial influence and activity can provide, North Korea is the most prominent current example. More on that place below. "The poor stealing first and foremost from the poor is an old story. It is one reason stealing should be discouraged as a social value." Condo I meant this more literally than you took it. I think you need some time in a crime-ridden inner city neighborhood to get my drift. I’ve lived in a couple, so I know whereof I speak. “Corporations have been stealing resources from third world nations for decades now, if anything, can the inequitous promote social values? Nay, its hypocritical praise.” Hot_Ice I didn’t see any place that I suggested Corporations exist to promote social values. A few do, but those are usually charitable or religion undertakings, not for profit. On the other hand, I think our corporations represent a social value. In other words, our society clearly values them. Profit corporations participate in society by doing business, which they can’t do if they don’t offer something their buyers and sellers want and value. Think of them as a character in a play, not the playwright. Drug companies are the ones with serious gross margins. Try several hundred percent on for size. Yet nobody argues they provide nothing of value to society. “The concept of ownership is ubiquitous and I sincerely doubt that it substantially undermines it.” Hot_Ice Poor choice of words on my part. Respect for ownership as a social value is what I should have said. This is actually a long-identified issue with all laws. A society that treats some violations with a wink and a nod soon finds people start winking and nodding at the law of their choice, which can be disastrous. Consider fire safety and overload capacity violations, for example. In many parts of the world these are just considered leverage government employees use to extract bribes. “That is truly deplorable. India as a society can't afford to be individualistic, they should considered a collectivistic approach on the current problems plaguing their nation.” Hot_Ice This maybe is the crux of the matter. You are right that it would be beneficial if people behaved collectively in many matters, but in the real world they just won’t or don’t sustain it if they start. That’s was the point of my comment that real human behavior wasn’t always flattering to our species. And the lesson of the water purifiers in India is far from the only example of its kind. From the economic collapse of the former Soviet Union to the current situation in North Korea, where isolation from corporate profiteering is pretty complete, the policy of indoctrinating people to and depending on collectivism has left them dependent on foreign food to prevent starvation and, in the case of the kidnapped Japanese, even on foreign education. Dependence on collectivism just repeatedly fails unless you have huge natural resource wealth to support it. You can motivate most people to labor for an ideal for a period of time, but very few to do so for a lifetime. I’ve seen estimates that it can be managed in 15% to 20% of people. The rest, after awhile, start conserving energy and only do the dead minimum required to stay out of trouble. As an aside, about twenty years ago management studies of how to introduce change into the workplace found about that same percentage represents both the number of workers in any large group who are willing to try almost anything new, as well as the number who will resist trying almost anything new. Most people fall somewhere in between in their willingness to try new things. Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but I doubt it. It’s about attitude. "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Hot_Ice Yeah, but don’t forget the context of that ancient Chinese saying: The man is hungry. That’s the catch (sorry, couldn’t resist). He is motivated to learn to fish. If he thinks you’ll just give him another fish whenever he asks, what’s his motivation? He won’t learn or won’t learn well. “Teaching others how to become a self-reliant and self-sufficient is priceless. However, think about it, you illustrate a common problem as well in the USA... Are we able ourselves to be self-sufficient if a catastrophe of massive proportions were to afflict us? The answer is no, and I think we are being very hard on the people we are trying to help by expecting too much.” Hot_Ice I think you got it right in the first sentence. They have to be motivated, unfortunately, by the very real threat that they will be left out in the cold if they don’t learn it. The New Orleans debacle is an example of that. The Amy Corp of Engineers proposed and had the money set aside to reinforce and raise the levies in ‘94, but an environmental impact lawsuit by the Sierra club scuttled it. They got environmental impact, alright; all that gasoline laden water being pumped out into Lake Pontchartrain. Then evacuation rehearsals were conducted as recently as a year before, then not followed when the moment came. Most flood pumps weren’t maintained properly and didn’t work. So, with the preventive measures neatly neutralized, first by good intentions, then by ineptitude, that city’s government went into denial and delayed evacuation. Then its state government delayed asking for assistance. Then the federal government tripped over its two left feet trying to finally provide that assistance. Just one organization got several semi’s loaded with everything from blankets and bottled water to food and clothing and had it on its way to New Orleans in under 8 hours. Local FEMA? The Red Cross? Nope. Walmart. “Under capitalism man exploits man, but under communism it’s the other way around.” Mad Magazine circa 1965. “If you aren’t a socialist in your 20’s, you have no heart. If you aren’t a conservative in your 40’s, you have no head. If you aren’t a curmudgeon in your 60’s, you haven’t been paying attention.” Jeff Cooper’s variation of the François Guizot quotation. “Duncan”—word, Condo

@condo I will have time to refute your arguments and clarify some points, however, I will be shortly delayed since my sister has burdened me with some rather nasty trojans... Norton tells me its a bundle trojan...Seems good things come in packages... DAMN YOU INTERNET EXPLORER TO HELL. IF ONLY MY SISTER KNEW HOW TO USE RED HAT LINUX!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!

At least get her to run FireFox. She probably won't miss the ActiveX functions. My sister's machine got so infested (over 900 hits by AdAware, plus a VX2 variant) and she was getting about 100 spams a day. I talked her into backing up her essential data and wiped the disk and started over. I added a router to her single machine just to get the hardware firewall, and we changed her ISP and and e-mail accounts at the same time. I put in the Zone Alarm suite. Spy Sweeper and AdAware Pro's Ad Watch also load for redundant spyware protection. I subscribed her to Spamcop to have it pick up from her main e-mail account and filter and deliver to a second e-mail account and set Eudora so that second address doesn't show up in her replies. You really have to jump through hoops to secure Windows. Wheee. I'm hoping not to go through that again any time soon. Condo

@ Condo I am impressed with your opinions and skill at addressing these issues that go way beyong socially unacceptable behaviour. Excellent reading! My hat is off to you sir! I have contacts at the IMF, World Bank, IFC, and the IADB. They promote commerce and the construction of many commercial and civil engineering projects. They are all about promoting the betterment of the people they serve. Unfortunately, the people they deal with sometimes are extremely corrupt, but they are in power. This causes uneasy alliances with people who most people would not want to deal with. These persons in power rape and pillage their own people and natural resources, then put those natural and human resources up as collateral for the loans the banks and international organizations provide. These banks then have to deal with the fallout when the deposed leaders who have stashed the money in foreign European and Carribbean bank accounts, or in gold, diamonds, or untraceable bearer bonds, etc., skip town or go to countries where they pay bribes for protection and isolation from prosecution. It's a whole world problem, not just in the western hemiphere. This gets the banks into hot water with the anarchists who demand an end to the the world bank, et al. The world bank is an interesting organization that is quasi-governmental and private at the same time. It is ironically mostly controlled by very rich people in second and third world countries. They try to take over the collateral that is put up as security for these multi-billion dollar loans and that causes riots and unrest bot in the countries where the loans are made, but also in the countries where the World Bank meets (mostly Washington, DC). You see the news on Network television as bands of anarchists riot in the streets as the World Bank conducts their meetings. This would be a perfect time in the discussion to talk about selling the media (DVDs - we did start this thread on that topic, yes?) with regional restrictions. Say the DVDs had - a REGION code? That might work, but people find ways to hack the regional coding scheme in DVDs or with software to circumvent regional coding, it just never ends... What if we as a 1st world country, went to Venezuela and just stole their oil? Would that be OK? I mean they get a LOT of money for their cartel controlled foscile fuels. Why should I pay more for it, just because I live in a country where it's an import? Don't the Venezuelans deserve a profit on their product? Sure they do. Digital does not mean "devoid of value", it's just easier to counterfiet or steal. Shame we don't have digital oil, huh? My Humble Opinion... Joe

"I think because you have no exposure to business practices." I take no offense to this since I am still a student and haven't had much exposure in the business world as of yet. "So the loss comes out of what would otherwise be paid to the retirees and pension funds who now own most of the stock. That is why these are the people actually stolen from, and why it is that stealing from a corporation is not justified by the fact the corporation itself isn’t human. It’s the people that money would otherwise go to that get hurt." I've actually worked in a corporation, and there are actually a lot of slimeballs within it. Do I feel sorry for them, no absolutely not, however, thou shalt not steal, and you do have a point. Your interpretation of the word exploitation is quite different than mine. Allow me to elaborate: yes, when you go to work it is a form of exploitation, however you get a decent return on the amount of labor given by you. Now working in a factory in a 3rd world country, and getting paid 3 cents an hour for it isn't as decent, isn't that exploitation? Based on your previous statements, you would suggest a resounding no. Therefore, my questions is this: what is the real definition of exploitation? "As to the sheer volume of corporate income, have you considered that many multinational corporations have more employees than some countries have population, children included? Considering how corruptly and poorly run many nations are, I should be more surprised if it weren’t true that some corporations have larger gross products. I’m not sure what that logical fact means other than that they are larger and/or better orgainized." Corporations wield power equivalent to that of a nation. Corporations can interfere with local governments interests. Therefore, corporations have evolved into something unique. This was my point of interest, should have been more clear. “Walmart grosses an average of 20 cents on every 1$ made in the USA. . .” Hot_Ice That wasn't even my quote, believe it or not, I got it off the news by a reporter or some sort of analyst. You cannot possibly hold me accountable for repeating what they said...hehehehee "This is what clued me to your lack of business experience." Isn't that a tad harsh, I did afterall take a few business classes! "The normal rule of thumb used by accountants is that brick and mortar retail operations break even with 22% gross margin. Out of that 22% come the taxes and fees and, most importantly, employee salaries and benefits. If you think Walmart underpays its employees, then you are indirectly advocating that their gross margin be increased. 40% gross margin is the normal margin for small to medium size brick and mortar retail businesses. If Walmart’s gross is 20% and they still have any net margin left over to distribute to shareholders, they are running very efficiently indeed." Thankfully, my sister is a Chartered Accountant, so I don't have to ever deal with this loololl. However, thumbs up on the explanation! "deliciously apropos irony" Lol priceless! I liked that one. Its important to remember, that everything in this world is based on ideology, and nothing exists without it. "The IMF is yet another fine example of a government-created operation and is as incompetent to administer privatization as any other. What’s your point?" It was pretty destructive in Argentina, I suggest you read on it. If anything, to keep you well informed... "You’re going to have to get down to details and describe the future we would otherwise have without the major job providing business organizations? This way we will know what is being stolen, exactly?" Again look up Argentina and the 10 billion dollars (around that amount) that left the country in a day and left it in ruins due to the IMF. A Utopian type society will never come to fruition since we aren't advanced enough to fathom its workings. "I think you need some time in a crime-ridden inner city neighborhood to get my drift. I’ve lived in a couple, so I know whereof I speak." Well, I've had the chance to live in poverty and war striken neighborhoods, and you do have a point. However, I simply chose to illustrate another. "I didn’t see any place that I suggested Corporations exist to promote social values." Well, true, I went on a tangent and it happens that I babble... :~O "In other words, our society clearly values them" Society values corporations because they value money, nothing more. "Its about attitude" Brilliant assessment! "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Hot_Ice "Yeah, but don’t forget the context of that ancient Chinese saying: The man is hungry. That’s the catch (sorry, couldn’t resist). He is motivated to learn to fish. If he thinks you’ll just give him another fish whenever he asks, what’s his motivation? He won’t learn or won’t learn well." True, but it is better to know where to start, than not know where or what to begin with. “Under capitalism man exploits man, but under communism it’s the other way around.” Mad Magazine circa 1965. “If you aren’t a socialist in your 20’s, you have no heart. If you aren’t a conservative in your 40’s, you have no head. If you aren’t a curmudgeon in your 60’s, you haven’t been paying attention.” Jeff Cooper’s variation of the François Guizot quotation. Good quotes, I especially like the word curmudgeon, it brought a smile to my face lol. Hot _ Ice Yo!

F*** these stupid laws. i say if u r intelligent enough to "acquire" movies, games, software, etc. with a little time and effort then it wouldn't make paying for them very logical. these laws are just a way for the selfish, greedy creators of the material to make even more money(as if they don't make enough off lagit purchases) thoses are the plaeople ruining America, no wonder other contries think were so selfish. Oh, and another thing. all you people who support these stupid laws must hate robin hood. "God damn that bastard robin hood, stealing from the King so i can survive" translation- "god damn those al salvador people making it so i can afford a movie, their so evil"

@BLeiss2, so you think it should just be a free for all? No one should have to follow any rules or laws because they themselve deem them stupid? What the F*#$ is wrong with you. What are you, like twelve years old and think that if things aren't fair, just take your toys and go home? If every one in the world thought like you there would be no F&$#ing games, music, or movies to steal any way. What would be the point of making anything? No one would buy anything from you when they can just take it. ROBIN HOOD? Do you still believe in fairy tales? You are an IDIOT if you can justify stealing because Robin Hood did it, and that makes it all right! Grow up.

lol all im saying is people in el salvador cant affor a $20 movie. and 90% of the people in the world are too stupid to get free music or games, i was just sayin is that that it goes to show how selfish some people are. they have to attack and go after the 10% of people that take the time, do the research and get stuff for free. they arent satisfied with the rest of the people that dont care about dropin 15$ on a CD or DVD because they think they can be getting another million or so of f the people ripping them off. thats wat i get pissed about. they make tens of millions and they have the nerve to bitch about the 1 mil they dont make.

Well the movie/music industry really isn't interested if you've done your research or not. Either way they're losing money they could be making, if say someone did their research and bought it for cheap, then they probably wouldn't mind, as long as they get there money. Money is what makes the world go around, and people are going to want all that they believe they deserve, or at least all they can get. Could you honestly say to me that you wouldn't do the same thing? Think about your said '10 percent' of people that get music and movies for free [a figure I think is probably off by a considerable amount] The amount of money that the movie and music industry's deal with is enormous. Think about losing 10 percent of your salary, because someone was ignoring established laws. Since you seem so concerned about your welfare, you'd want that 10% correct? A million dollars is worth just about as much money as it is to anyone else. Doesn't matter how many millions you have. It's a lot of money.

i agree, but say u made 9 million of a cd, and 1 million u didnt make because of pircay. do u think it is right for u to complain that u ONLY made 9 million dollars. they seem to be more unhappy about the mony they dont make. they dont even use most of their money, they buy whatever the F*** they want and they still hae millions left. if i was an artist and i was loosing even more money than i was making, i would still be estatic that i had a couple million. in all honesty WTF would i do with a million dollars. americans get so much money for ridiculous shit and get pissed when they think they get ripped off. alex rodriguez bitched that 23 million a year wasnt enough. now WTF dos arod do with 23 million dollars. BTW he did get an extra 2 mil. do u know what sum people would do for two million dollars. all ARod does is play baseball (which shouldn't qualify as a job because jobs arent sopposed to be fun, and u loose your job when u F*** up, but not him)he is just an example. there are so many over paid athletes and singers ect. it is pretty hard to pirate something an athlete does, but heres a fun fact. sum @$$hole football player sued a man for taping the football game that the player had played in and got a quick $200,000. so if u can seriously tell me that u wouldnt be satisfied makin a couple mil a year while even in america there are homes that reach 15 degrease becaus ethey can afford heating, and while there are people living in allys that starve to death then i hope u go to hell because sum people are so poor they would go as far as prostituting their wife and children to make enough money to put food on the table. no one likes to loose money but im just proving that we are the most selfishe people in the world thats all

You're far from proving that they're are more selfish people in the world. But I understand your perspective, I don't agree with it, but I understand it however poorly presented it is. America shouldn't be singled out for having rich and poor people, every country is like that, and it isn't about to change as far as I can forsee. A good number of 'rich' people donate a considerable amount of money to charity and the less fortunate as well. Don't blame the players for wanting more money, they're in high demand, and if a large population didn't support baseball then baseball players wouldn't get the salaries they do. I think baseball players deserve the money they get, as long as they perform. I don't believe in the contracts they have, and I think they should be able to be fired just like any other employee that didn't perform as expected. Baseball players are however treated like property, but that isn't for this forum. We all know the world isn't fair, and that seems to be your main point. I believe record and movie companies get the money they deserve, and have a right to claim the money they lose through piracy. And what a movie or album grosses isn't how much they profit, there are a lot of expenses in creating a movie/album and getting it on shelves in stores. You seem to be forgetting that this money isn't going to just one person, and just as I said before, a million dollars is a lot of money.

i am totally on your side, i wasnt trying to say america is the only greedy country. i do disagree on baseball salaries, but that is for a later time. and i know that alot of people work on movies, and most arent millionaires, but camera man and sound guys arent the ones getting short changed. its the company paying for the movie that takes the largest pay cut from piracy. they are the only ones that get paid depending on sales. and think about the donations ritch people make. after they make them, the go out of their way to let everyone know about it, and it would take a big donation to make any difference. think about if sum1 made a 1,000,000 dollar donation. the charity would take between 2%-6% which is at least 20,000. probably 90% of it will go to shelters (which only gives them food and shelter for a couple weeks) that takes out 900,000. it is estimated that there are 3.5 million homeless in america so about $.02 of what they gave will go to the homeless people to go on a shopping spree. WHOO HOO and if u take out the 920,000 from other stuf then each person gets an astonishing $.28. get 7 more cents and you can afford a lunch sized milk carton. thats amazing!!!

Now wait a second here, we are talking about El Salvador. We aren't talking about America, Canada, Australia, etc, but El Salvador which is essentially a third world country. Their average yearly salary is about 4500$, do you think they will spend 25-40$ on a dvd? That's insane. You don't sell gold to the poor, come on, give me a break. Its common sense, but I think greed blinds you to that.

thats exactly wat im sayin hot_ice, the only way you can afford to buy a dvd in el salvador is if it is pirated because they would never spend $20 on a dvd

Then its safe to assume that piracy is a byproduct of greedy corporate film productions.