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Triple-layer HD DVD / DVD developed

Written by Ben Reid @ 12 Sep 2006 2:15 User comments (38)

Triple-layer HD DVD / DVD developed In a joint project, Memory-Tech and Toshiba have created a one-side, triple-layer disc for both DVD and HD DVD formats. It is a breakthrough which opens the door to higher capacity hybrid storage on a single disc.
The new disc is an advance on Toshiba's current DVD TWIN format, which supports both DVD and HD DVD storage types. The three-layer discs will allow for either two HD-DVD layers and one DVD layer, two DVD layers and one HD DVD, or one dual-layer DVD and one HD DVD layer.

Toshiba say the TWIN format was created so that consumers could have both the standard definition and high-definition versions of a movie on a single disc, so videos can be played on DVD and HD DVD players. This also means film makers and producers can put two editions of the same film (SD and HD) on the same disc without worrying about reaching capacity.

The TWIN format has yet to be widely accepted, although some companies have adopted it, such as Japanese visual entertainment company Pony Canyon. "We have been releasing TWIN Format titles since April," said Pony Canyon's general manager Hideki Oyagi. "We are getting positive feedback from the market, and our TWIN Format titles are selling better than anticipated."

The slow growth of the TWIN format is likely to be because HD DVD itself has yet to be consumed on a large scale.

- tomshardware
- The Register

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38 user comments

112.9.2006 2:47

This may give it a huge advantage over blu-ray interesting to see what happens

212.9.2006 2:54

I find this facinating and it will be great to see this capacity od dual layer on both sides so it becomes 4 sided in a way. It will take a long time to become widley used. To me even High Defenition DVD's have not become that common yet either.

312.9.2006 4:19

That's what we thought when the first DVD player came out back in 1996 or 1997. Can't believe how long ago that was. Feels like it was just yesterday. Look at it now, It has completely taken over vhs. I don't know many people that buy vhs these days. You're right about taking awhile to become widley used. It's still a long way off, but it will pick up some day. Give it time.

412.9.2006 5:39

Nice now if they can get normal HD lens to read all the layers even better dosen't say how many GB per layer what is it 15GB?

512.9.2006 6:41

Does anyone know anything about there being up to 8 layers on the new blue-ray? I remember reading some article a couple months ago saying that they could put around 80 gb on a single blue-ray but that the data writing process was really unstable. I can't remember exactly but can someone help me out. If that is the case it sounds to be a little more than these new HD disks.

612.9.2006 6:44

sisneros lets just say on paper yes but they are currently having issues with 2 layers right now,BR is very new and very very bugy.

712.9.2006 6:51

Well I haven't bought VHS tapes in quite a while and I don't use my VCR for anything except to play video games on anymore but I still have yet to replace my VHS movies with DVDs.

812.9.2006 7:59

This could potentially cause HD-DVD to win the war, although its 'only' 3 layers the Blu-ray camp can't even get two layers to work properly so I can see this becoming a part of what helps HD-DVD take the lead and win. If needed I am sure the HD-DVD camp can develop a fourth working layer that is compatible with current DVD/HD-DVD players with minimal problems as they are currently stable with three. I could see this also helping the 360 as the games might fill up both layers and have a third to spill into if needed. If $ony can't even get dual-layered Blu-ray to work right its not going to help the PS3 much. I am sure they are trying to get it going but if they don't get Blu-ray working soon I could see the PS3 loosing the console war this round.

912.9.2006 10:29

Well that's nifty!

1012.9.2006 10:40

Pop_Smith the 360 is not built for next gen format gmaeing sure MS could do something about that but since its a add on it w0nt have the 3rd party support. its already well known tat BR right now is buggy and HD DVD is in a better shape but to soon to call heads or tails on the console war now on the next gen format war things are looking up for HD DVD.

1112.9.2006 11:01

This is a very interesting and unexpected twist in the new format war. There really is no telling how this will all go. Each format is getting pushed, and I think it may be a longer war than most people expect. It may take film into the same territory as games have been for a while, where there are two neck-and-neck competitors. This has never happened on a long-term scale, but it's entirely possible. Who knows. But all in all, no one can say that this new format war isn't interesting.

1212.9.2006 11:07

This could give M$ the chance to make certain games in HD,to make use of the player coming out this fall for the 360. They have stated that they won't release any games in that format but having a triple-layer disc might do it.

1312.9.2006 11:28

creaky got me, i'm such a tool

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Sep 2006 @ 12:45

1412.9.2006 13:01

Creaky, you are too talented. LMFAO You got him twice?

1512.9.2006 17:08

@Pop_Smith The fact that double layer discs for Blu-ray is still unstable is negligible, considering that a single layer is supposed to be upwards of 24GB...HD-DVD needs to develop more layers just to catch up to that single layer but anyways, glad to hear of technological advances

1612.9.2006 17:33

Ankoku BR can do 8 layers on paper but cant do 2 yet,its about 20GB once formated. HD DVD is up to 3 layers 10-15 GB a layer and thats not bad HD DVD is in alot better shape than BR.

1712.9.2006 19:23

I think eventually this could lead to a way to crack the HD-DVD protection system. Because now you can only watch HD content through a encrypted digital signal. But since the standard dvd layer wont have any new encryption on it one may be able to access the HD content?

1813.9.2006 3:02

triple layer, WOW!

1913.9.2006 8:35

3 layers and potentially double-sided. That adds up to a very large increase in capacity compared to current devices. It also seems the far more affordable of the 2 competing systems. HD-DVD's well in front by my reckoning (especially when the new PC drives get into their stride).

2013.9.2006 11:41

i dream of a world where both format can live harmoniously(is that a word?) side by side. bak 2 the real world i think hddvd will win the battle for the livingroom and blueray will win the battle for the pc. simply because joe public will go into the shop and look at the stand and think "blueray? whats that? hddvd that sounds like a dvd and it cost half as much..." and those looking for the ability to store large amounts of data onto disk will want blueray.

2113.9.2006 12:07

@marsey99 Well mate for the AVG computer user that has no idea, it will come down to cost as much as we would not want it too. The final product has to be cost effective for all.

2213.9.2006 13:42

marsey99 with richos dual drive they can BUT to much is riding on the rock'em sock'em robot bout to dirtremen the outcme of the formats so hollywood will use 1 and only 1.

2313.9.2006 20:41

Ohhh snap, this way u can even put a Movie in HD or SD, plus include the Special Features on just one disc. Kool. This is way cool. Right on guys.

2414.9.2006 7:52

In the end I think the winner of the war will all come down to who can sell their product cheaper. Most ppl wont even relise the HD is triple disk, all they will see is that it is HD and cheaper than blu.

2515.9.2006 12:19

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Toshiba already demonstrated a triple layer 45gb disc?

2616.9.2006 6:38

I seem to recall a time when we were waiting to see which format would win +R or -R. Now both formats are still here and the only one to win was the manufacurers of all the equipment as we kept buying faster discs and faster drives to burn them with. I'm sure 10 years from now there will be another "format war" going on and once again we'll pour our money into the latest and greatest.

2716.9.2006 14:35

puterman Ya but unlike +/- these are very different formats and have different sizes,add the fact HD DVD seems to me working right now and BR is still being worked on. its much more of a mess than with +/-

2817.9.2006 20:06

OK, I didn't think I would really have to defend myself on my favorite forum but I guess thats what I get for taking a side on the next gen DVD war.

Pop_Smith the 360 is not built for next gen format gmaeing sure MS could do something about that but since its a add on it w0nt have the 3rd party support. its already well known tat BR right now is buggy and HD DVD is in a better shape but to soon to call heads or tails on the console war now on the next gen format war things are looking up for HD DVD.
OK, first off just because its an add-on does NOT mean that it won't get support from 3rd party game developers. If they need the extra room I am sure they will use the HD-DVD add-on in their games. It won't be a for a while because its an add-on and not standard equipment but it will be used if really needed.
The fact that double layer discs for Blu-ray is still unstable is negligible, considering that a single layer is supposed to be upwards of 24GB...HD-DVD needs to develop more layers just to catch up to that single layer but anyways, glad to hear of technological advances
Why, Ankoku, is that negligible? If the technology doesn't work then it doesn't matter how glorious its looks on paper. 24GB? Its about 20GB formatted correctly. Yes, its still more room then HD-DVD on a single layer for now but its still on paper and HD-DVD camp has a working, totally useable product out that is about to the same amount of data storage dual-layer Blu-ray.

2917.9.2006 21:46

Pop_Smith I dont see it unless its strictly a 360 game then maybe,I dout any of the PS3 devs/publishers would go thru the extra effort to press out HD DVD and BR games unless the manufacture can do both in one plant. If you like the 360 great for you I just see it having less potential than the Xbox did of course the Xbox's full potential was never hit and because of that I am even more skeptical that the Xbox 1.5 will last. I still see the Xbx 2 coming out in 3ish years. MS can start ramping up support for HD games but even they have said "not interested".....the 360 is a mess is it waste it is however 200 more than I am wiling to pay and so is the PS3 if it was 400 for the whole thing with 60GB HD and HDMI I'd jump for it but no way in hell am I going to shellout top dallor for a half asrsed machine....altho I will be willing to get a WII in febaury ,I need a new WII mine is broken 0-o *L*

3017.9.2006 21:55

OK, at least your not a Sony Fanboy (I want a Wii too :D) But, you are right, I don't see them developing a HD-DVD (or even a Blu-Ray) game anytime soon as they are still making XBox 1 games. :)

3117.9.2006 22:12

Pop_Smith Sorry this is my big 360 rant *L* And sadly half of the better games are on PC,the 360 is a mess I just cant see it as anything but ya know? if they competently did BWC right I would have a 360 right now but no they half asred its build and half arsed its launch its going to take 2 solid years just to recover from it >< they would have sold 3X more if it had full BWC in it why becuse the Xbox now has a great line up thus the 360 is fighting with the xbox becuse the 360 cant play ALL the Xbox games ><..its jsut a mess....everythign abotu the 360 says put off for acouple years then come back,like the Xbox did... ================= As for the PS3 it has more potential than the 360 dose and the Xbox had,smipley because it has all the devs willing to do all kinds of sht for the system dose that make it worth more than half a G....mmmmm NO...lets see these new games on these new BR discs first and while we are at it lets see the frist real BR game to use 20 or so GB Resistance:FOM, frist least see this before we ignore you for acouple years.... ================== The WII is about the only one thats reasonable in any shape or forum ,sure it doesn't have full blown high def,but nintendo is tricky and known for doing more with less. In all I see it as a cross between the GC and the Xbox with Nintendo games you have the best of both worlds Xbx like net and graphics with nintendo qauilty you just cant go wrong.

3220.9.2006 15:49

From prior experience with electronics evolution, it would seem that a format which is backward compatible will be the most favored by customers. It allows manufacturers to start producing HD DVD in place of regular DVD without losing money. This would make Blu-ray the odd man out, and could very well win teh format war, regardless of which format is more stable or higher tech. If manufacturers can make a new disc, that is higher tech, and backwards compatible, everybody wins,a sfar as they and consumers are concerned.

Game systems aside, it works. People will start to get all these discs that are capable of higher res, so they'll upgrade to a player that can use them, rather than a player that requires all new media. Besides, look at how many people like to bring movies to different places, or lend them out. This would allow you to lend your HD DVD to your friends, etc.

I think that, again regardless of console preference, this sort of multi-format compatibility could truly end the format war, almost before it really gets started. It's truly marvelous to see how much difference such a simple innovation can make.

"Its not stupid, its advanced!" - The Almighty Tallest, Invader Zim

3320.9.2006 16:12

hey man hows it going? ^^

wait the PS3 can do CD and DVD PS games it should to be able to do DVD movies so dose that mean nomral BR players cant do DVDs? 0-o

darn it you went over my head :P

witch is the innovation BR,HD DVD,360,PS3?

I have to get over my dislike of the 360 but I am enjoying my Xbox I just got :P
I been planing to get one for 2 or 3 years now *L*

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

Check out my crappy creations

3420.9.2006 16:59

That's a very interesting question, loaded with substance, just like the question/answer:

The PS3 will be able to play PS2 games(Although PS1 strangely has not been confirmed, or even mentioned. Odd. Too little to include in the system, or too little to mention?)

ANYWHO- The PS3 will not actually do *true* emulation of the ps2. It will be running the ps2 games through an actual ps2 processor chip inside of it. The high res function will be obtained by using the PS3's processor to run high level anti-aliasing over the post processed image, which in previous levels of hardware would be terrible, but given the current new gen, is entirely doable. So, the PS3 will handle that by running two completely seperate systems in conjunction, unbeknownst to the end user. Fascinating stuff. Naturally, this means the game system will require a DVD capable drive.

As of yet, however, Sony has not stated whether or not Blu-ray will be capable of reading regular DVDs by standard function. Is Sony including a special dual-drive? Is this normal for the drive? And if this isn't standard, then how much more will players be to have the extra functionality.

The one thing that can be fairly safely concluded is this, Blu-ray will likely not support HD DVD, otherwise Sony would have mentioned intercompatibility right away, and these threads would not even exist. So, either way, HD DVD has it's own advantage. Because Blu-ray players would only be able to read the lo-res version of films, which would already be purchased by regular DVD users. This still gives HD DVD a built in audience of sorts.

Still, depending on how the intercompatibility is handled and advertised, it seems that HD-DVD has a consumer advantage(Again, outside the realm of game systems) simply because consumers will already own them, and naturally upgrade to something that will give them higher definition from their current collections. Blu-ray supporting regular DVD may help a LOT, but I think that Blu-ray not supporting HD DVD on currently owned films may be a large disadvantage, and I could be wrong on this last bit, but from what I've seen, it's also the more expensive option.

"Its not stupid, its advanced!" - The Almighty Tallest, Invader Zim

3520.9.2006 17:11

didn't answer how you been :P

*nods nods*

BR right now is weak and almost laughable HD DVD seems to be ahead in just about everything.

I do know about the PS3 having PS2 hardware ^^
Mmmm my thoughts are it should be able to handle CDs and PSX games but who knows sony tends to say and do things separately 0-o

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

Check out my crappy creations

3620.9.2006 22:06

Heres another thought for the great one,Sine BR cn do 4X more space at least on paper would there be a change for BR to make a come back in 3 or so years when its issues have been dealt with?

It wouldn't be like lazer disc since BR would have some players out but wth that said in order to read all the layers would you need a new drive would hollywood jump over to BR for the huge jump in space if they can kill all the bugs??

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

Check out my crappy creations

3721.9.2006 16:22

I like this idea.

It'll suit many households that have HD TV but only the one (which I'd guess is many homes).

2 layers HD DVD and a single layer 'normal' DVD might well be a very clever combo.

Especially given the news from Japan about the price of the HD DVD add-on for XBox 360.
Just under than 90 (around $160 US).
So much for tales of 199!

Sony expect PS3 to be a big kick-starting boost Blu-ray but a lot of things seem to be going very right for HD DVD at the moment.

3821.9.2006 17:03

It's a possibility. Definitely. Either way, I don't think the media will COMPLETELY fail, so long as the PS3 is successful. And whether you like them or not, we can all agree that Sony could pack feces into styrofoam and cardboard, sell it as a PS3; and still make a fortune off fanboys alone.

The real question here is whether people will want to move over to it, even at that point. Right now, the majority of 1080p televisions don't actually support 1080p input. What does that mean? That means that the PS3 could sport sixteen cell processors, 120gb of ram, and eighteen X1800 ATi video cards, and those tvs still couldn't actually receive a TRUE 1080p signal(Note to Sony: You say the 360 isn't true high def, because it doesn't [yet] do 1080p? Well as of right now, neither do you!)

Currently, the few 1080p capable televisions are doing 1080p scaling, which in short, means a very ugly word.... Fake. It's simulated high def, once again, through the clever use of anti-alias overlays. Allowing a live, nano-second accurate representation of what appears to be a higher resolution image, by dithering away the ugly jaggies.

While I use may facts, which I can back up, or can be verifiried in most electronics stores just as quickly, the next statement is based entirely on educated opinion, and is not intended to be a strong fact:

True 1080p capable televisions, receivers, players, etc. may very well not exist for most consumers for another 5 years.

Why? Because of how few users even have lower quality high def NOW. It's been around since DVD launched, and yet it's safe to say that somewhere between two and three out of ten consumer homes have one. It's taken that long, and this is an all new standard, it takes time.

And now, back to facts.

Blu-Ray may be physically capable of making a stronger start when it's more stable, and less volatile. And who knows, they may fix that before PS3 launch, and have no problems. It's entirely possible. With that considered though, I still feel that the Blu-ray is largely disadvantaged by the fact that HD DVD can be printed onto the same disc as the standard DVDs. This means that (Hopefully very soon) users who invest in regular DVDs will already be making an incidental investment in the HD DVD format. It makes them more likely to favor that type of player, when they already have some high res media for it. While Blu-ray will possibly be able to play DVDs(Seems expected for PS3, but regular players have not confirmed this feature yet) in their standard definition; it seems that a Blu-ray player capable of playing HD DVD may be very far off, and if HD DVD gets even a one year headstart in this market, that could be very detrimental to the Blu-ray product. The last ten years make me want to say that Sony is a big company, who can successfully recover from a hit like this. But the last year or so honestly makes me wonder.

They failed the UMD format, most distributors have pulled out, announcing it to be largely unprofitable, especially with the rampant piracy issues that ensued from users simply storing films on memory cards. And the PSP itself is also (sadly) facing possible extinction, with some big publishers pulling out from game development. They've been offending customers left and right, downright insulting clientele. Ken Kutanagi needs to be banned from speaking for the company, as he seems to always have more bad news for gamers ever time he speaks.

It's weird, because they've been so big so long, but this looks like what might just be a dying giant. Still, there's a lot of room to be fought for here, so only time will tell. The only thing that can be said right now, is that Sony is certainly off to a rocky start with both the system, and the format. And if they save this, it's going to be from MAJOR effort. They're more than capable of it if they can pick themselves up.

"Its not stupid, its advanced!" - The Almighty Tallest, Invader Zim

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