Is VMD serious comptetition for Blu-ray?

you have got to be kidding me?! idiots! HD-DVD didn't win & they had more features & low production cost & studios behind them, i don't see this going anywhere!

Originally posted by ripxrush:

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you have got to be kidding me?! idiots! HD-DVD didn't win & they had more features & low production cost & studios behind them, i don't see this going anywhere!

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I agree. I mean, VMD might be the cheaper alternative, but the way I see it, that comes with a different price, namely the lack of certain features. I don't exactly see this going anywhere.

DVD and downloads are what will crush Drm-Ray. Sony's outlook of total control of the media with anti-consumer DRM & licensing tactics that mean you own only a licence to use it not the actual product, basically an empty bag, will be its downfall. Anti-Consumer never lasts. Down with DRM-Ray and its privacy destruction.

Four reasons Blu-ray Disc will fail

Originally posted by hyperlink pc advisor:

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The battle between the next-generation, high-definition optical disc formats was an exciting, if exasperating, contest to follow. But now that the smoke is clearing, and Blu-ray has officially kicked HD DVD's proverbial butt, why am I still waiting to buy a Blu-ray player?

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CES: Blu-ray movies

Originally posted by hyperlink:

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Monday, January 07, 2008 20:37
Las Vegas (NV) - Despite a nearly unprecedented level of anticipation, there really wasn't much to take away from today's Blu-ray press conference at CES, but a couple of the interactivity features seem promising.

being able to register Blu-ray Discs directly from the disc.

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the last line is where it gets scary as they could lock it to one device, or one location and with the DRM embedded into the PSN release of warhawk that locks it to 1 account and taking away all rights of ownership this is not that far fetched and something sony is obviously doing to customers, so you'd all better get lubed up and bend over as sony's onslaught of ripping off the consumer is continuing as per usual.

This will fail only because people are lazy. Say that the enemy (NME) gets all of the features, there will be a problem. People will not be willing to go through another format war just because one company thinks they have a better product. I know I'm not. Plus, this is only the second reference I have heard about VMD so it is probably not very well known among the average consumer.

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DVD and downloads are what will crush Drm-Ray. Sony's outlook of total control of the media with anti-consumer DRM & licensing tactics that mean you own only a licence to use it not the actual product, basically an empty bag, will be its downfall. Anti-Consumer never lasts. Down with DRM-Ray and its privacy destruction.

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Even illegal(free) downloads couldn't stop physical media, you really think that legal(by pay) downloads will manage to crash BD? Get real.
Plus dont forget that legal Downloaded movies have DRM too.

2nd as the HD-TV sales going up day by day , BD players sales will go too and thats another factor why BD will keep going up and DVD (really slowly tho IMO) but eventually will go down.

and dont forget that Movie industries support DRM.

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People will not be willing to go through another format war just because one company thinks they have a better product

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Format wars aren't necessarily a bad thing, because without them there would be no competition. Competition lowers prices and gives cause for improvements.

Now that Sony has beaten down Toshiba with "under the table dealings" with movie studios and then bribed Toshiba to drop out altogether (that's right bribed)there is no competition left. Did Sony break antitrust laws by doing this?

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=10826

http://www.deepjiveinterests.com/2008/02...does-it-matter/

Sony is the wrong company to take control of a format. Remember Sony is fully behind the RIAA ands MPAA thugs. Remember all the nice rootkits that Sony shared with unsuspecting consumers?

http://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich...ne-too-far.aspx


Many of us are starting to create our own HD home movies but because of
the price of Blu-Ray burners and media it is a little on the expensive side. I don't care if a new format markets games and movies, I only care that an affordable HD backup system finds its way to the market.

Originally posted by Sophocles:

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Format wars aren't necessarily a bad thing, because without them there would be no competition. Competition lowers prices and gives cause for improvements.

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How then can you explain how regular DVD - without any competition - has managed to bring down its prices to $50 for an upconverter and $15 for a new release title?

For BluRay the competition will be between the different manufacturers. HD DVD had only one manufacturer and they artificaially deflated player prices to the point that it become non-viable for other makers.

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Many of us are starting to create our own HD home movies but because of the price of Blu-Ray burners and media it is a little on the expensive side.

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My father's first standalone DVD recorder was a $2500 Panasonic imported from Japan and his first DVD-RW PC drive was $350 with blank discs costing $15 to $20 each.

Prices come down as the technology matures.

If you hate Sony so much then buy a Panasonic, a Pioneer or even a Denon. A Funai branded player from China will be coming soon at an expected MSRP of around $250 or less. IIRC most of the BluRay burners bundled with Sony Vaios were made by Matsushita/Panasonic.

Back to the VMD topic: It's my impression that the lack of studio support will spell an early doom for this format. The only market I see for VMD is the Bollywood fan who has to have his movies in HD.

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How then can you explain how regular DVD - without any competition - has managed to bring down its prices to $50 for an upconverter and $15 for a new release title?

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My previous point was directed at a need for HD burners and underlying media at reasonable costs, not prepackaged media and players.

Note that upconversion doesn't make standard DVD playback into actual HD content because it can't add what was never there in the first place. All upconversion is doing is upscaling the lower aspect ratio and pixel count of standard DVD to the higher aspect ration and pixel count of high-definition television. The picture quality remains unchanged.


To answer your question, there was two competing DVD formats with Sony once again in the picture. Remember the DVD-R and DVD+R debate. in the end both formats survived and we all benefited for it.That is perhaps one of the primary reasons for the lowered prices of standard DVD. Also adding to the lowering price of the standard DVD format is that it is cheap and easy to manufacture where Blu-Ray is expensive and difficult to manufacture.

If VMD falls into the easy to manufacture and inexpensive to operate category then it might get a leg hold just as DVD+R did, and it should be given a chance to survive. As I stated in my last post beyond prepackaged movies and games there is a need for affordable burners and media.

If you expect blu-Ray burners and media to seriously drop in price any time soon under the control of Sony, then you expect what never has been and what probably never will be. Imagine a $15 Blu-Ray coaster which is likely to happen on a buggy and expensive Blu-Ray burner. I shudder just to think about a $1.50 Dual layer coaster.;)

This whole thing is full of fail. Had they launched when the others launched, maybe this format would have a chance. If these discs could be read by most devices that read DVDs, maybe this format would have a chance. If this had ANY major studio support, maybe it would have a chance.

But none of these are the case. They need some sort of haymaker to come into the game this late. A couple of jabs and hooks aren't gonna do squat.

*double post*

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It's my impression that the lack of studio support will spell an early doom for this format.

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As juankerr said, lack of studio support will kill them! No support for the new hi-def audio formats? WTF, yea they will need to work on that as well.

Also, they don't seem to have any heavy DRM on their discs, for any company to back them, they are definitely going to have to step it up in that dept - look what happened to HD DVD.

I don't see this format doing so well.

What about HVD? LINK [URL=HTTP://www.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc]link[/url]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

I waited awhile before choosing blu-ray, as did alot of other people. i just don't see two seperate formats surviving. i think HD VMD is wasting money, its too late for them. people simply do not like multiple formats. while i realize that VMD may have lower production costs, the US economy is reeling right now and introducing this format now is a bad idea.

dam there just to late+there out gunned sony...is just to much competition

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Now that Sony has beaten down Toshiba with "under the table dealings" with movie studios and then bribed Toshiba to drop out altogether (that's right bribed)there is no competition left.

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You act like Toshiba is clean or something. If Sony hadn't done it first, Toshiba would have. It's the nature of the beast.

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i just don't see two seperate formats surviving. i think HD VMD is wasting money, its too late for them.

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I too wonder if they have a chance distributing movie and games, but they might have a chance as a low cost burner if their media is reasonable. Their players are compatible with standard DVD so that might make it a bit more interesting to enthusiasts.

I don't know about you folks but if they can produce a recorder with $5 each media I would be game, but then I always go for fringe devices. I suffer seriously from insatiable curiosity.;)

Consumers dont care about DRM until tis locked enough of them out to start a class action suit.

Any format to take on BR needs 4 things lower price,same/better quality larger disc space and studio support.

BR is not going anywhere for the next 5 years unless the studios revolt on sony.

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You act like Toshiba is clean or something

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Nah! I don't do much acting.;)

No one is saying that Toshiba is clean especially since they took to the bribe from Sony. I was advocating for the format and against Sony because they are bad news, but I wasn't advocating for Toshiba in any way. Check the context of my previous statements.

There are antitrust laws in most countries for a reason. Corporations never work to the best interest of others which leaves all of us to help them make better choices. If we get it right then everyone wins and if we get it wrong we get Sony, the RIAA, and the MPAA Nazis. This time we largely got it wrong because our choices could have made a difference.

When the DVD consortium adopted DVD-R as the chosen format Sony ignored them and gave us DVD+R, and this time Sony got it right. It was because of the introduction of DVD+R that the price of burners and media dropped dramatically, even though all movies were still being released in DVD-R format only. In time DVD+R burners began to win the burner market because of price and performance, but still no movies were being released in DVD+R. In time the issue was solved by simply making dual format burners and multi format players. Don't let anyone convince you that there is not enough room for competing formats. It is to our benefit to have them and not the corporations.

I don't think any manufacturer will change format now that they have paid to be a part of the Blu-ray camp, and as they have already invested in manufacturing lines for Blu-ray it probably would't be worth it to change again. Also all the free press Blu-ray has gotten lately its becoming a household brand, even people who know nothing of technology have heard of Blu-ray, and that weighs a lot when marketing issues are considered.

vmd is a great format and it doesn't have all the features cuz it hasn't been used by major studios.

IF the three formats would have started at the same time, i'm sure vmd would have won, now it's just too late

Originally posted by chaos_zzz:

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IF the three formats would have started at the same time, i'm sure vmd would have won, now it's just too late

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Highly unlikely, with basically no DRM built in, this surely wouldn't have won over the movie studios. And with no support for the new hi-def audio codecs, I don't think anyone would have purchased that over HD DVD or Blu-ray - I know I wouldn't have.

Just 5 gigs more space on a single layer? Nah, that isn't worth giving up all the extras Blu or HD DVD had to offer.

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ighly unlikely, with basically no DRM built in, this surely wouldn't have won over the movie studios. And with no support for the new hi-def audio codecs, I don't think anyone would have purchased that over HD DVD or Blu-ray - I know I wouldn't have

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So what is VMD's technology compared to Blu-Ray? It claims to be able to store up to 40 gigabytes on a single disc using a red laser where as Blu-ray can hit 50 gigabytes using a Blu-Ray laser. But then VMD can also use a blue laser and store up to 60 gigabytes and therefore beats Blu-Ray for storage.

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And with no support for the new hi-def audio codecs

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The current high definition codecs standards are called (High Profile and Main Profile}and are licensed through MainConcept now owned by DiVx (a familiar name to all of us old video geeks) and SMPTE VC-1 - standard based on Microsoft's Windows Media Video (WMV) technology. Both are available for licensing to anyone who can pay for it, and as you know until recently Microsoft was supporting HD DVD.

VMD like HD DVD is easier and less expensive to manufacture and like HD DVD promises fewer bugs and greater standard DVD compatibility.

I don't think that VMD is likely to stand down to Sony because they are already making waves in the fringe indie movie market.

Here's thier website, read up on it:

http://www.nmeinc.com/index.aspx#

I'm not making any claims in favor of VMD but I can see them making an impact by supporting outside the mainstream HD video.

Here is a link to movies already available on VMD.

http://nmestore.com/index.php?cPath=2&os...e3906c1cec0c761

i smell serious fanboy arguments rioting allover this place!!

anyway right now id be happier if blu-ray stayed! its 9ish times the size of a dvd (thats huge), and id love to back them up!! am i right!

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The current high definition codecs standards are called (High Profile and Main Profile}and are licensed through MainConcept now owned by DiVx (a familiar name to all of us old video geeks) and SMPTE VC-1 - standard based on Microsoft's Windows Media Video (WMV) technology. Both are available for licensing to anyone who can pay for it, and as you know until recently Microsoft was supporting HD DVD.

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Hmmm, that's great, but I wasn't referring to video codecs, I was referring to the audio codecs. VMD players will not offer Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio surround sound.

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making waves in the fringe indie movie market

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Keywords here, indie movie market. I don't see any major studio jumping ship on Blu-ray anytime soon.


Again, this format will not make any impact on Blu-ray, sorry.

Originally posted by goodswipe:

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Keywords here, indie movie market.

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Looks more like "Indian" movie market AKA Bollywood. Just go through the available titles in their website - a lot of Hindi language films. You can even order a Bollywood Bundle Box:

http://nmestore.com/product_info.php?cPath=13&products_id=147

I doubt if any major Hollywood player will bite. There's just a lot of "format war fatigue" after HD DVD's demise.

its over.....

Nice one tripplite!

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I doubt if any major Hollywood player will bite. There's just a lot of "format war fatigue" after HD DVD's demise.

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Couldn't agree with you more eatsushi. Format war fatigue is a great way to put it.

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mmm, that's great, but I wasn't referring to video codecs, I was referring to the audio codecs

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Which is a moot point since it will offer 7.1-channel Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS audio which is a difference of nothing since the difference is inaudible to humans.

I have no idea if VMD will survive but I do believe that it has a right to a chance, and it could in the long run benefit us all.

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Keywords here, indie movie market. I don't see any major studio jumping ship on Blu-ray anytime soon

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Neither do I but I see a cult movement possible which could keep the format alive. I for one am a big fan of Indie music and movies and I think that the Indie market is going to continue to grow.

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I have no idea if VMD will survive but I do believe that it has a right to a chance, and it could in the long run benefit us all.

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You're right about that, the format has the right to try and prove otherwise, but unless they are offering something LARGER then what HD DVD and Blu-ray have to offer, none of that matters.

I'll tell you what will allow it to survive:

1. Free 12 pack of Blue Moon with every movie purchase.
2. Free movie passes to all new movies in theaters.
3. Three dollar media.

Those are just all my guesses, but hey, just maybe right?

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1. Free 12 pack of Blue Moon with every movie purchase.

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1. Guinness Preferably in a keg.

I like your list of options but you missed just one that would sway me. Affordable burners and media. LOL

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but unless they are offering something LARGER then what HD DVD and Blu-ray have to offer, none of that matters.

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The new architecture not only works on red laser – the basis of the world’s current DVD manufacturing capability, but it will also operate with blue laser technology, if and when it becomes main stream. This represents a very attractive solution for manufacturers of players and discs who, for minimal additional re-tooling costs, can upgrade their production capacity to deliver low-cost True High Definition viewing to the consumer, a market that is starting to experience explosive growth.

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With a blue laser VMD can hold 10 gigabytes (60 total) more than Blu-Ray can.

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Neither do I but I see a cult movement possible which could keep the format alive. I for one am a big fan of Indie music and movies and I think that the Indie market is going to continue to grow.

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ha haha *te he*

we will suppress the rebels and make coasters of their MEDIA!!
muhahahawaa

Sophocles -you need to set up a profile!

here is some more info on VMD

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Versatile Multilayer Disc (VMD or HD VMD) is a high-capacity red laser optical disc technology designed by New Medium Enterprises, Inc.. VMD is intended to compete with the blue laser HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc formats and has an initial capacity of up to 30GB per side.

At CeBIT in March 2006, NME demonstrated a prototype VMD player and announced that they were expecting to launch the format in the third quarter of 2006. At the Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association trade show in September 2007, NME exhibited two players set for release in October 2007. There will be 20 US titles available at launch time, including many from Icon Productions. They have also signed a deal with Bollywood production company Eros Group who intend to release 50 Bollywood features on the format.

The two initial players to be released are the ML622S and the ML777S. The ML622S will cost approximately $150 USD. The ML777S costs currently (2008-01) USD 200 and includes USB ports (for connection to external storage devices) and a media-card reader.[1]

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and

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Disc format

The format uses approximately 5 GB per layer [2], similar to standard DVDs. The larger formats come from adding more layers. Whereas DVDs hold up to 2 layers per side, standard VMDs can use 4 layers, for 20 GB of storage. There are also reports of 8- and 10-layered versions which can hold 40 and 50 GB, respectively. [3] The manufacturer list up to 20 layers on a disc being possible in the future. [2]

The Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD formats use blue-violet lasers, rather than VMD's red laser, which means they can store more information per layer. However, those formats have so far only utilized 1- and 2-layered versions. In January 2007, Toshiba announced a triple layer HD DVD (TL51) that would have a capacity of 51GB. Hitachi announced a 4 and 6 layer version of Blu-ray as well, capable of 100 GB and 200 GB respectively. Therefore, a standard 4-layer VMD stores 20 GB which is comparable to a 1-layered HD DVD (15 GB) and 1-layer Blu-ray Disc (25 GB).

[edit] Content format

The HD VMD format is capable of HD resolutions up to 1080p which is comparable with Blu-ray and HD DVD. Video is encoded in MPEG-2 and VC-1 formats at a maximum bitrate of 40 Megabits per second. This falls between the maximum bitrates of HD DVD (36 Mbit/s) and Blu-ray (48 Mbit/s). There is the possibility that VMD discs may be encoded with the H.264 format in the future.[1]

The HD VMD format supports up to 7.1-channel Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS audio output, though it will not offer Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio surround sound codecs.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versatile_Multilayer_Disc
(i think i might edit that page up eh?)
-tripplite

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Versatile Multilayer Disc (VMD or HD VMD) is a high-capacity red laser optical disc technology designed by New Medium Enterprises, Inc.. VMD is intended to compete with the blue laser HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc formats and has an initial capacity of up to 30GB per side

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Dated or incomplete info here is the latest.

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VMD is precisely the same size and thickness as DVD. While DVD technology utilizes two layers of a disc, VMD technology has conceived multi-layering, whereby the storage capacity is dramatically increased. Each additional layer adds approximately up to 5 GB of memory over a standard DVD disc. VMD provides the ability to place up to 20 layers on a single disc with no quality loss in the content stored. This means capacity to record 100 GB or more.

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If that is possible with a red laser then what can be done with a blue laser?

I would however be happy with an inexpensive 20 gigabyte burner that uses inexpensive mediat that plays High Def.;)

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Sophocles -you need to set up a profile

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Hmm! perhaps in time. I used to spend more time at AD but things change.

Hmmm... I wonder if VMD could end up being what VCD was (and in some cases still is) for Asia! I can see the Pirates sailing in now... :-P

Originally posted by pomelo:

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What about HVD? LINK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

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3.9 Terabytes per disc! That is insane! Imagine what you could do with that... I want one... Please Santa! :-D

If they had the danglers to support .mkv files they could do very well.

just think if you could rip blueray to harddrive then burn to vmd disks that were cheap and a cheap player to play it on ?

Originally posted by hughjars:

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If they had the danglers to support .mkv files they could do very well.

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I agree but mkv is an open container format meaning there are no limits to what formats can be packed into a Matroska (mkv) file. As I have said on a previous thread, to fully support the Matroska container you would need every codec ever conceived on board to support it. Also, as it is completely open source there aren't any profile guidelines. If it is any combination of video, audio or subtitle formats you can always throw it in a Matroska container. So as you can see it would be almost impossible to support it in a stand alone player. Imagine the licensing issues. If you really did want Matroska support, then I would advise a Home Theater PC set-up.

Originally posted by tleewade:

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just think if you could rip blueray to harddrive then burn to vmd disks that were cheap and a cheap player to play it on ?

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Yes, I was thinking that too. That was the inspiration behind my previous post... Well, that and Captain Jack Sparrow giving me business ideas!

They don't need mkv support to succeed.

What they need are:

$500M for Warner
$150M for Paramount/DW
maybe $250M to $300M each for Universal, Disney, and Fox

etc.

Ryu77~ i think you may be on to something, VMD might become (if it gets cheap) the poor worlds hd format, just like VCD is its DVD....thats a good point
and ya never know!! it could happen

Originally posted by juankerr:

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They don't need mkv support to succeed.

What they need are:

$500M for Warner
$150M for Paramount/DW
maybe $250M to $300M each for Universal, Disney, and Fox

etc.

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ROTFL!!! Hahahahaha!... Well done! :-D I love it!

Originally posted by juankerr:

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They don't need mkv support to succeed.

What they need are:

$500M for Warner
$150M for Paramount/DW
maybe $250M to $300M each for Universal, Disney, and Fox

etc.

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LOL, I know right? Hmm, it would probably be a little more then that. Probably in the billions for those bigger studios like Warner and Universal. I just don't see any of these guys jumping ship on Blu-ray.

VMD will never succeed by only selling its players online. If you start seeing them at Target, Walmart, etc. then it might do something. Then again besides Mel Gibson movies and Bollywood, what else will you do with it? It would be nice to see Microsoft or Google buy them out to take on Sony.

VMD is not going to make any ground on blu-ray we have just got a winner in the format war soo i dont think consumers will really want to go through another battle.