Blu-ray takes early Christmas sales lead

Content & Quality is going to win every time...Not a real surprise here i think having Disney is huge.Also lets not forget BD has Pirates of the Carribean,End of World coming out this week this series has been a very high seller for BD look for those number to increase this month.January looks to be there strongest month ever with CES coming expect some shakeup in the HD market.

Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending November 25th

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...0207/index.php

WE: BD-72% HDD-28% YTD: BD-65% HDD-35% SI: BD-62% HDD-38%

Can't wait to hear what the HD-DVD fans have to say about this.
They have an excuse for everything... I know who I am waiting for to comment on this...

Originally posted by m3_chris:

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Can't wait to hear what the HD-DVD fans have to say about this.
They have an excuse for everything... I know who I am waiting for to comment on this...

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Any person that argue with Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers are crazy this is the closest your going to get to accurate numbers.

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Originally posted by m3_chris:

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Can't wait to hear what the HD-DVD fans have to say about this.
They have an excuse for everything... I know who I am waiting for to comment on this...

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I know just who you mean and I really wouldn't have a issue with what that person loves to post except they are extremely bias in all their post.

Any person that argue with Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers are crazy this is the closest your going to get to accurate numbers.

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I never really support estimated numbers from websites but if they are fairly accurate thats fine with me.


Typos lol

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Originally posted by m3_chris:

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Can't wait to hear what the HD-DVD fans have to say about this.
They have an excuse for everything... I know who I am waiting for to comment on this...

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I know just who you mean and I really wouldn't have a issue with what that person loves to post except they are extremely bias in all their post.

Any person that argue with Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers are crazy this is the closest your going to get to accurate numbers.

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I never really support estimated numbers from websites but if they are fairly accurate thats fine with me.


Typos lol

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This isn't a estimate its numbers from retailers that report them..I know Walmart don't report there numbers at all but Walmart isn't the leading HD seller they are like 3rd or 4th.

One acronym: BOGO.

It's easy to have twice the sales numbers when you give away one disk with every disk bought. That entire week there were BD BOGO sales everywhere, and those free disks are counted in these nielsen numbers.

See that's the thing with HD DVD supporters. Exposed with what's happening in Reality (tm), they end up making their own rules, benchmarks and conditions of success. We all know that studio support can only come from software sales, it would be hard to argue against that. But confronted to that reality, they had to make up a link named "attach rates", and from there try to exclude all elements that would look defavorable, and attach elements that would play against Blu Ray.
With this in mind (sortof akin to a Creationist taking an exemple of millions of years of evolution and saying "there must be a design behind this!" without empiric proof, and now basing an entire logic behind this made up argument), they state that standalone (and only standalones - cue using the slightly inferior Blu Ray # of standalones) make up movie sales, and because HD DVD has (supposedly) a better attachment rate (cue attaching millions of PS3s to the numbers), they win.
This of course totally discounting the Reality (tm) which is that Blu Ray has outsold 2:1 all year long, and will only grow stronger (with increased PS3 "attachment rate" and lower priced players in 2008) from here to easily -my guess- reach a 3:1 average by the end of Q1 2008 at worst.

We deal with facts, they deal in "beliefs" and "faith".

Originally posted by spydah:

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I never really support estimated numbers from websites but if they are fairly accurate thats fine with me.

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Here's a list of retailers that report their numbers to Neilsen:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachmen...16&d=1171406427

It's pdf file that you can open with acrobat reader. It's an impressive list and very comprehensive.

Just a few on the list:
KMart
ShopKo
Target
amazon.com
AOL.com
Best Buy
Borders
Circuit City
Costco
Tower Records
virginmega.com
Barnes & Noble
Blockbuster
J&R Music World

Originally posted by Balaam:

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One acronym: BOGO.

It's easy to have twice the sales numbers when you give away one disk with every disk bought. That entire week there were BD BOGO sales everywhere, and those free disks are counted in these nielsen numbers.

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They count for both sides so whats your point? Tell HD-DVD to get a better BOGO deal its called better marketing.

Disc sales aren't going to settle anything.
There isn't enough of a profit margin on them to win it for either format. Xbox has outsold PS on titles. Does that mean PS is in trouble? Obviously not. Player sales will eventually settle it, because users adopting means more channels to sell discs. That's if it's ever settled. It's a lot easier to make a hybrid disc player than it used to be.
Recording, that's a different story.

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Originally posted by Balaam:

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One acronym: BOGO.

It's easy to have twice the sales numbers when you give away one disk with every disk bought. That entire week there were BD BOGO sales everywhere, and those free disks are counted in these nielsen numbers.

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They count for both sides so whats your point? Tell HD-DVD to get a better BOGO deal its called better marketing.

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It isn't about how much it costs, in the end all that matters is the number of discs owned by the consumer. Like Nextgen said, it's called marketing.

I own a HD DVD player that I recently got from circuit city for 119.99(toshiba HD-A2)and I also have a Ps3 for my Blu-Ray.My point is that I can see a forum for both formats to win but I just hate the fact that some movies are HD exclusive and some are Blu-ray only when it seems that companies can make titles for both formats and collect earnings from both sides.

Weren't those sub $200 dollar HD DVD players only in 1080i???? I believe they were, which is not a comparison to the $400 Blu Ray Player, whether it is a stand alone or a PS3. I work in a game store and people will buy the PS3 just because it is a cheap Blu Ray Player, so you can never discredit the system being used in Blu Ray Player sales numbers.

Blu Ray has been true 1080P from the get go, while HD DVD was a cheaper jump up to 1080i, and they just shifted over to 1080P, which is why Blu Ray is the better next gen DVD.

3:1 wow nice..

I tend to be in favor of HD-DVD, given it's a cheaper technology and at least it has only *one* useless layer of copy-protection. But all in all I don't particularly care which format wins. Still though, it seems like every week we hear about one format beating the other, and then the next week exactly the opposite story, so I take any "X is beating Y" article with a kilo or two of salt at this point.

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Originally posted by Balaam:

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One acronym: BOGO.

It's easy to have twice the sales numbers when you give away one disk with every disk bought. That entire week there were BD BOGO sales everywhere, and those free disks are counted in these nielsen numbers.

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They count for both sides so whats your point? Tell HD-DVD to get a better BOGO deal its called better marketing.

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Are you serious? My point was too opaque for you? OK, let me make it more clear. HD-DVD had no BOGO sales that week. BD did, at basically all major retailers. That explains the ~2.5:1 sales ratio in favor of BD. People didn't actually pay for 2.5 as many BD disks, they got one disk free with every disk they purchased.

So OK, the BDA gets some nice PR from the sales numbers, but they had to give away a disk for every disk sold to do it. Only a fanboy could be aware of the situation and still be ZOMG BD PWNS!!

Originally posted by nonoitall:

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I tend to be in favor of HD-DVD, given it's a cheaper technology and at least it has only *one* useless layer of copy-protection. But all in all I don't particularly care which format wins. Still though, it seems like every week we hear about one format beating the other, and then the next week exactly the opposite story, so I take any "X is beating Y" article with a kilo or two of salt at this point.

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i dont think its cheaper, just least expensive..
but yes its true about the seesaw thing happening every week or so

Originally posted by bigdawg10:

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Weren't those sub $200 dollar HD DVD players only in 1080i???? <snip> Blu Ray has been true 1080P from the get go, while HD DVD was a cheaper jump up to 1080i, and they just shifted over to 1080P, which is why Blu Ray is the better next gen DVD.

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To argue 1080i vs 1080p in these sales numbers is totally useless. The same pixel info in a 1080p signal is in a 1080i, and is indistinguishable on all but the highest end panels. And besides, you ignore all of the Toshiba HDDVD models that ARE 1080p...

I ASSURE you that joe six pack and his wife are NOT discussing the merits of p vs i when they are picking up a HD player to go with their new 36" 720p TV! Only the most anal of early adopters worry about those things. (and pay a huge premium for it as well.)

Just curious, how many here will truthfully say that they have a 1080p BR player AND a display capable of 1080p? Just a quick poll.

Originally posted by bigdawg10:

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Weren't those sub $200 dollar HD DVD players only in 1080i???? I believe they were, which is not a comparison to the $400 Blu Ray Player, whether it is a stand alone or a PS3. I work in a game store and people will buy the PS3 just because it is a cheap Blu Ray Player, so you can never discredit the system being used in Blu Ray Player sales numbers.

Blu Ray has been true 1080P from the get go, while HD DVD was a cheaper jump up to 1080i, and they just shifted over to 1080P, which is why Blu Ray is the better next gen DVD.

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You have no idea what you're talking about. First off, because the content on the disk is encoded in 1080p, it doesn't matter if it is interlaced for output, because a 1080p TV will deinterlace the image to 1080p which is what will be displayed, with zero loss of data or image quality. Now, jutter will be introduced into panning shots, but unless you have a display that will accept a 1080p24 signal and do 5:5 pulldown to display a 120hz signal, the jutter will exist in all 1080p60 displays anyways, even if there is no interlace/deinterlacing being done.

The second thing you have no idea about is that BD wasn't "true 1080P from the get go". The early Samsung players, the first players on the market, only had a 1080i capable decoder chip, so that had to put a second deinterlacing chip in order to be able to output a 1080p signal. That's no different then if the player outputs a 1080i signal and the TV does the deinterlacing.

Man hughjars must be having a field day over this one...

I have had an hd dvd player from the beginning and have had a great experience with toshiba. They replaced a laser that i burned out at no cost what so ever when i was over a year outside my warrenty. I have said to my wife that we will also get a bd player when they hit the $200 mark. At that price I am willing to purchase a $30 movie. I am looking forward to getting a bd but not at $400 and i think many see it this way.

Originally posted by m3_chris:

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Can't wait to hear what the HD-DVD fans have to say about this.
They have an excuse for everything... I know who I am waiting for to comment on this...

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i am waitng for hughjars to comment on this, lets see his excuse this time eh, lol just joking hughjars

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Originally posted by m3_chris:

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Can't wait to hear what the HD-DVD fans have to say about this.
They have an excuse for everything... I know who I am waiting for to comment on this...

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i am waitng for hughjars to comment on this, lets see his excuse this time eh, lol

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No offence to hughjars or anything but I think everyone is...

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't reply...

lol, id say he's the truest hd-dvd fan on AD, he always has an excuse for everything

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Originally posted by Balaam:

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One acronym: BOGO.

It's easy to have twice the sales numbers when you give away one disk with every disk bought. That entire week there were BD BOGO sales everywhere, and those free disks are counted in these nielsen numbers.

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They count for both sides so whats your point? Tell HD-DVD to get a better BOGO deal its called better marketing.

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Are you serious? My point was too opaque for you? OK, let me make it more clear. HD-DVD had no BOGO sales that week. BD did, at basically all major retailers. That explains the ~2.5:1 sales ratio in favor of BD. People didn't actually pay for 2.5 as many BD disks, they got one disk free with every disk they purchased.

So OK, the BDA gets some nice PR from the sales numbers, but they had to give away a disk for every disk sold to do it. Only a fanboy could be aware of the situation and still be ZOMG BD PWNS!!

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Let me say this real slow since you can't understand.....M.a.r.k.e.t.i.n.g better yet you don't know what your talking about because HD-DVD gave away movies too.Plus some HD-DVD players i can't remember which model come with 2 free HD-DVD titles in the box,300 & The Bourne Identity.

Black Friday 2007 and Related HD DVD Deals

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These tid-bits of information may help you in comparing various deals:

* Verify the model number before you buy. The HD-A2 is the older model and should always be less expensive than the HD-A3.
* While these deals are all on the A3, it’s possible that the same merchants have something interesting on the A30 and A35.
* ALL of Toshiba’s HD DVD players are eligible for the “5 free movies” offer which expires on February 29, 2008. The Xbox 360’s add-on HD DVD player is also eligible for this offer, as are purchases of Toshiba’s laptops equipped with HD DVD drives. You receive these movies after mailing in a form, and it can take a couple of months to get these movies.
* The HD-A3, HD-A30, and HD-A35 come with 300 and The Bourne Identity in the box. This results in a total of 7 free movies overall. It means you get to start watching two HD DVD movies right away.
* In-store and instant rebates are always better than mail-in rebates.
* For offers where you can choose extra movies at the time of purchase, make sure you know about pricing or other restrictions.
* Don’t forget to include tax and shipping costs in your comparison.
* Consider whether the merchant has the items in stock and how long you’re willing to wait for your HD DVD player.

And here’s the list:

* HHGREGG: HD-A3 for $150
* Tiger Direct: HD-A3 for $169
* Sears: HD-A3 for $169 on Black Friday from 5am to noon
* Costco: HD-D3 for $179 (the big club version of the HD-A3, membership required, player includes HDMI cable)
* Amazon: HD-A3 and 10 movies for $199 (or less)
* Value Electronics: HD-A3 and 10 movies for $199
* Circuit City: HD-A3 for $199
* Best Buy: HD-A3 for $199 (back-ordered, check in store if they have a free movie deal on top of the usual)

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http://www.hddvd.com/go.php/black-friday...deals/#more-129

Whats your excuse now ? Once again say it alone with me its call M.a.r.k.e..t.i.n.g !!!!!!

I don't know why I bother posting at this kiddie playground.

Anyways, yes it's marketing, that's not the point. You're stating the obvious, and thinking you're saying something. The sales ratio is what it was for that week, in large part because of the BD BOGO sales. Of course the BDA companies did it for marketing purposes. That has nothing to do with the effect, which was to artificially inflate BD sales numbers, which is what I was pointing out.

And the free disks included with the player aren't counted in the nielsen software sales numbers. Actual disk sales, which include the BOGO disks, are included.

I'm sure you'll have another nonsensical reply to try to hide the fact that you're wrong on this matter, but I won't bother replying unless you make it really ridiculous, so really go big on the next one.

NexGen76

Thats the thing all the bias posters don't look at both sides they have tunnel vision. When you point out a fact that can be true either way they will argue that its only one and not the other.

Originally posted by Balaam:

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I don't know why I bother posting at this kiddie playground.

Anyways, yes it's marketing, that's not the point. You're stating the obvious, and thinking you're saying something. The sales ratio is what it was for that week, in large part because of the BD BOGO sales. Of course the BDA companies did it for marketing purposes. That has nothing to do with the effect, which was to artificially inflate BD sales numbers, which is what I was pointing out.

And the free disks included with the player aren't counted in the nielsen software sales numbers. Actual disk sales, which include the BOGO disks, are included.

I'm sure you'll have another nonsensical reply to try to hide the fact that you're wrong on this matter, but I won't bother replying unless you make it really ridiculous, so really go big on the next one.

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Just stop now because you haven't backed up anything you said i have proved you wrong just take it like a man or woman & deal with it.

You're right, what's the point in conversing with people who only care about believing what they want to believe.

adios

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Originally posted by bigdawg10:

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Weren't those sub $200 dollar HD DVD players only in 1080i???? <snip> Blu Ray has been true 1080P from the get go, while HD DVD was a cheaper jump up to 1080i, and they just shifted over to 1080P, which is why Blu Ray is the better next gen DVD.

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To argue 1080i vs 1080p in these sales numbers is totally useless. The same pixel info in a 1080p signal is in a 1080i, and is indistinguishable on all but the highest end panels. And besides, you ignore all of the Toshiba HDDVD models that ARE 1080p...

I ASSURE you that joe six pack and his wife are NOT discussing the merits of p vs i when they are picking up a HD player to go with their new 36" 720p TV! Only the most anal of early adopters worry about those things. (and pay a huge premium for it as well.)

Just curious, how many here will truthfully say that they have a 1080p BR player AND a display capable of 1080p? Just a quick poll.

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i have a 1080p display paired up with a 1080i HD A3, im very satisfied with the results, im not a fanboy of HD DVD either, imma go "purple" as soon as theres a BD player for ~200 or that 80GB PS3 hits ~400

i work at circuit city and on black friday out HD-DVD's sold out...
they were selling at 199$ and 249$
but there were also a lot of people buying new bluray players both in out store come with 5 free movies and i believe the Blurays came with 8 free movies that day....

i work at circuit city and on black friday out HD-DVD's sold out...
they were selling at 199$ and 249$
but there were also a lot of people buying new bluray players both in our store come with 5 free movies and i believe the Blurays came with 8 free movies that day....

i work at circuit city and on black friday our HD-DVD's sold out...
they were selling at 199$ and 249$
but there were also a lot of people buying new bluray players both in our store come with 5 free movies and i believe the Blurays came with 8 free movies that day....

Originally posted by sk8flawzz:

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i dont think its cheaper, just least expensive..

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Forgive me, but doesn't cheaper *mean* less expensive?

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Originally posted by sk8flawzz:

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i dont think its cheaper, just least expensive..

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Forgive me, but doesn't cheaper *mean* less expensive?

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yea..i thought you meant cheaper as in..inferior..

Oh, I see. Nope, just less $$$. :-)

Originally posted by sk8flawzz:

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3:1 wow nice..

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when you consider that there are over 6 million ps3 blu-ray players and a few hundred thousand stand alone's compared to less than 500,000 hd-dvd players a 3-1 lead is very pathetic!

I don't think it was the BOGO sales at all.

Bluray just had better titles that week. That was the week when Star Trek:TOS (HD DVD) was supposed to compete with the 4 Die Hard movies (BluRay). The new releases for that week were:

HD DVD
Tremors (Universal)
Star Trek: The Original Series - Season One (Paramount)
Led Zeppelin: The Song Remains the Same (Warner)

BD
Badder Santa: The Unrated Version (Buena Vista)
The Santa Clause 3: The Escape Clause (Buena Vista)
Hairspray (New Line)
Die Hard (Fox)
Die Hard 2: Die Harder (Fox)
Die Hard with a Vengence (Fox)
The Die Hard Collection (Fox)
Live Free or Die Hard (Fox)
Pathfinder (Fox)
Rescue Dawn (MGM)
Led Zeppelin: The Song Remains the Same (Warner)

The Star Trek box was around $130. It just didn't sell as good as expected.

I think this is the main reason for the 72:28 figure, not the BOGO sales. If the titles aren't very attractive you won't sell many discs even if you had a BOGO sale.

Let's just say this now so it's out in the open and we at least start from a sound basis.

HD DVD movie sales are tiny.

There, that's it out in the open and everyone can see it.

Now here's the other fact in this little 'war'......

Blu-ray movie sales are also tiny.

You see however you look at it neither format is selling many movies.
That's why the Blu-ray fans love to make big claims about percentage or ratio leads, they avoid actual numbers sold like the plague because
coming out and admitting that they have sold just over 2 million discs (to HD DVD's just over 1.4 million discs) puts the spotlight on how pathetic the real high def sales numbers are compared to a retail movie disc market of 750 million + (annually).

But for all the Blu-boy's glee the actual facts of the matter are that HD DVD doesn't really mind this situation right now.

HD DVD cost (compared to Blu-ray) almost nothing in R&D and it's production is done on existing lines with very little changes.
We'll soon be seeing the shift to 'Total' movie discs
(where HD DVD and DVD versions of movies are on the one side of the disc you buy - if you have HD gear you get HD, if not you get upscaled SD) these are not like the older flipper combo discs and will be relatively cheap too.

The lines are being blurred and people will end up seamlessly switching to the new format - maybe even without many even realising it.

HD DVD is just quietly dropping prices ever closer to the current DVD 'norm', expanding and developing it's features & taking ever greater hold in the adult a/v market.
HD DVD can much more easily 'afford' a lower and slower return, Blu-ray cannot.
That is why they have leapt upon every tiny move in this 'war' that they can spin as positive for themselves and have tried to pronounce HD DVD 'dead' several times (more laughably each time).
It really is pretty transparent, laughable and a little sad, IMO.

This is all in stark contrast to Blu-ray which cost an almighty fortune to develop and which requires new and difficult production methods & facilities
(currently there are said to be only 2 BD replication plants with anything like a successful fail rate on their DL discs for instance).

.....and things like BOGO offers merely drive up Blu-ray's costs even further.

Blu-ray is not winning anything, except the 'PS3 market'

This concept is obviously a tricky one for the fanclub to grasp but here goes - even if the PS3 is something of a flop in the whole games market, with Blu-ray as a built-in feature of the PS3 then Blu-ray can hardly fail to 'win' the PS3 market.

The truth is that Blu-ray is PS3 right now.

We already know losses are significant on every PS3 sold but
people who claim Toshiba are losing money on their HD DVD players (which is highly debatable with the new gen 3 players) invariably ignore the situation with the other Blu-ray manufacturers - how much must they be losing having developed a whole (obsolete) generation of very expensive but poorly spec'd Blu-ray players that have resolutely refuse to sell?

....and we haven't even started with the 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' players and discs yet!

It really doesn't matter if they sell a few more PS3s, they are merely driving up a deadend that will never result in Blu-ray 'taking' the adult a/v market - just like HD DVD could care less if they sell some more UMD movies, it's the same kind of thing.
(and you can forget those bogus numbers that showed Blu-ray stand-alones leading in one month, HD DVD standalones have led forever).

Only a blind cretin would imagine that regular SD DVD is going to vanish soon, the most likely explanation for the low numbers is that people are buying SD DVD to watch upscaled on their (excellent) HD A2/HD A3's
(as indeed it's pretty obvious many are still doing on their PS3s).

The 1080i/1080p point is laughable.

It's amazing how many of the Blu-ray fans want to look down their noses at 1080i as cheap rubbish when in fact the only 1920x1080 res HD TVs that will ever show any differences are cheapo rubbish ones with a cheapo rubbish deinterlacer built into it.
Ironic or what?!

(BTW recent tests in the USA showed over 70% of new TVs deinterlace very well so it makes no difference whatsoever - except to your pocket.....

.....and if you haven't got 1920x1080 native res - which is by far the majority of HD TVs out there - you can't have 1080p no matter what anyone says - not that it will stop the Blu-ray PR/marketing liars leading you up the garden path about that.)

Really that is all they have left, lies and spin.

HD DVD offers the best pricing (the high end of HD DVD is where the entry level Blu-ray begins).
HD DVD offer the most movie content (and exclusive movie content) - because you can import and take advantage of it being region-free 100% of the time (unlike Blu-ray).
HD DVD offers audio and image quality 2nd to none.

.....and after the Paramount move and with China adopting HD DVD as their format of choice HD DVD isn't going away anywhere
(as Blu-ray heads ever faster up the cul-de-sac of being a PS3 proprietary format).

HD DVD offers the best pricing (the high end of HD DVD is where the entry level Blu-ray begins).
HD DVD offer the most movie content (and exclusive movie content) - because you can import and take advantage of it being region-free 100% of the time (unlike Blu-ray).
HD DVD offers audio and image quality 2nd to none.

HD-DVD sails are still worse then Blu-Ray's. Stats aren't excuses

What the heck? Woah! lol

The way I see it is, most people are very uneducated about these new formats, and usually common knowledge is the more expensive, the better. So when people see these more expensive products on sale, they go crazy and buy it and whatever else they need.

You bring up the same valid talking points hughjars, but you have to admit that there are other people here with different viewpoints that also hold some merit. I have supported HD DVD with my Toshiba A30 but reading posts on these threads with an open mind can be very educational.

hade for example has pointed out that there will be people who will want to see movies that are not available in their chosen format.

error5 and eatsushi have also noted that importing from the EU is not as cost effective in the long run as having both formats. Very few people will be willing to buy a movie from Germany that costs almost half as much as the $99 A2.

In the end it comes down to what movies you want to see at a reasonable price.

The fact that your chosen format gets beaten handily week after week at the Nielsen's doesn't help either. 60:40 in an election is considered a landslide.

This is the reason why the extra shelf on my A/V rack that will soon be occupied by a new Panasonic DMP-BD30 to go with the Toshiba A30. I guess you can color me purple.

Yay blu ray!

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The way I see it is, most people are very uneducated about these new formats, and usually common knowledge is the more expensive, the better. So when people see these more expensive products on sail, they go crazy and buy it and whatever else they need.

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You've got that right. I still have people telling me that their up converting player is high-def.

Costs are the bottom line here, they are all the industry will be interested in.

The truth is HD DVD is the lower cost (and therefore more profitable) format.

Blu-ray simply costs too much to make and just isn't selling enough discs, despite their synthetic brew-ha-ha about ratios and percentages.

All those new & very expensive facilities to reach sales of just over 2 million disc sales in a retail disc market selling 750 million + is nothing to be shouting about.

HD DVD doesn't have anything like the same worries as it costs practically nothing when compared.

I agree about how many people see upscaling as high def.
The thing is that that is a disaster for Blu-ray, not HD DVD.

As people renew their SD DVD player they will be most likely to buy a fine upscaling HD DVD player for the same sort of money they were expecting to pay for a decent upscaling SD DVD player.

HD DVD could care less if they spend a year playing cheap SD DVDs on that, eventually SD & HD DVD will come together on the one disc and if you have an HD TV you'll get HD, if not you'll get a nice upscale.

Nice & easy and something which Blu-ray (at well over double the price) simply cannot compete with..

bd is better, hd-dvd shouldn't be supported it's a waste of time and money, those factories should be producing more bd players and burners instead of making something that ppl will have to trohw away once this war is over.

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Just stop now because you haven't backed up anything you said i have proved you wrong just take it like a man or woman & deal with it.

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Balaam is right: It's a waste of time to try and debate here, because these PS3 fanboys can't seem to comprehend a detailed analysis of this format war.

Simple thing: BR BOGO (buy-one-get-one free) sales are counted in Neilsen numbers, HD-DVD promos are NOT. So HD-DVD discs that are out in people's hands are NOT counted, and a single purchase counts as 2 discs for BR.

If you can't see how that inflates Neilsen numbers, then discussion is hopeless.

(and I'm not saying that BR is doing anything wrong - it's great marketing, because they convince non-critical thinkers like yourself that they are dominating.)

Sheep.

Originally posted by Bosox07:

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See that's the thing with HD DVD supporters. Exposed with what's happening in Reality (tm), they end up making their own rules, benchmarks and conditions of success. We all know that studio support can only come from software sales, it would be hard to argue against that. But confronted to that reality, they had to make up a link named "attach rates", and from there try to exclude all elements that would look defavorable, and attach elements that would play against Blu Ray.

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Great Post no matter how they spin stuff they don't want to look at the facts that HD-DVD hasn't out sold Blu-Ray not once this whole year that where the truth is but they bring up there PR spin about attach rates which is garbage.I can't wait Til CES 2008 when The Weinstein Company(miramax films)drop them then we have Warner Bros which have dropped there total HD disc program which means something going to happen on there part.New Line Cinema don't even have any HD-DVD released date but have movie now out on BD.


The real point should be why HD-DVD hasn't out sold Blu-Ray with a cheap HD-DVD player on the market yet but they don't want to look at the truth only misguided lies & misinformed information.

HD-DVD faithfully why hasn't HD-DVD outsold Blu-Ray with there cheaper Hardware ?

Originally posted by hughjars:

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Costs are the bottom line here, they are all the industry will be interested in.

The truth is HD DVD is the lower cost (and therefore more profitable) format.

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That's taking the point of view of the CE manufacturers and their bottom line.

What I'm interested in is what the HD consumer wants. Right now, the high def enthusiast who only cares about movies has no recourse but to consider owning both formats to cover all his bases.

Personally, I haven't bought into HD yet and will continue to wait. When I can buy an HD-DVD burner for under USD $200 then I will jump into HD-DVD.

It's a shame though to see so many people so eager to back SONY. It's not a matter of being an HD-DVD fan, it's a matter of distrusting SONY for their continued, relentless pursuit to completely disallow consumers the ability to backup there media. You would think people on a site like this would comprehend that fact.

Slysoft say's it best, "Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people, who throw your fair-use rights out of the window."

I will wager that, once there is a USD $349, Lite-On HD-DVD burner available nationwide, this format war will truly begin.

Originally posted by skeil909:

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Personally, I haven't bought into HD yet and will continue to wait. When I can buy an HD-DVD burner for under USD $200 then I will jump into HD-DVD.

It's a shame though to see so many people so eager to back SONY. It's not a matter of being an HD-DVD fan, it's a matter of distrusting SONY for their continued, relentless pursuit to completely disallow consumers the ability to backup there media. You would think people on a site like this would comprehend that fact.

Slysoft say's it best, "Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people, who throw your fair-use rights out of the window."

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Sony is part of the BDA,Stealing software is a whole different issue & another tread.All consumer care about is weather there BD or HD-DVD player going to play the movie the just purchased.All of them do so whats the issue ?

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Sony is part of the BDA,Stealing software is a whole different issue & another tread.

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Backing up media you bought is not stealing. I'm sorry for your brainwashing but that is not my fault, nor my problem.

Quote:

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Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Sony is part of the BDA,Stealing software is a whole different issue & another tread.

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Backing up media you bought is not stealing. I'm sorry for your brainwashing but that is not my fault, nor my problem.

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When you bought that disc how many did you buy ? 1. I'm sorry there are so many out there that claim they are backing up the disc they bought but piracy is at a all time high now driving up cost for consumer.Make alot of sense don't it.

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Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Sony is part of the BDA,Stealing software is a whole different issue & another tread.

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Backing up media you bought is not stealing. I'm sorry for your brainwashing but that is not my fault, nor my problem.

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When you bought that disc how many did you buy ? 1. I'm sorry there are so many out there that claim they are backing up the disc they bought but piracy is at a all time high now driving up cost for consumer.Make alot of sense don't it.

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It's no different than backing up your hard drive that contains software you only purchased one copy of.

I have purchased the same cd and dvd multiple times in the past. My favorite cd always seems to get a nice long gouge or scratch right across a section of my favorite song. Same holds true for DVD media.

I can't begin to tell you how many CD's my kids broke when they were young. First thing I do when I buy a new CD or DVD is back it up and put the original away for safe keeping.

I do not see anything wrong with doing this and neither should anyother consumer. Big business expands the scope of piracy to engulf things like this in order to FORCE consumers to buy it again and again.

If I am the one stealing then why do I feel robbed?

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Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Sony is part of the BDA,Stealing software is a whole different issue & another tread.

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Backing up media you bought is not stealing. I'm sorry for your brainwashing but that is not my fault, nor my problem.

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When you bought that disc how many did you buy ? 1. I'm sorry there are so many out there that claim they are backing up the disc they bought but piracy is at a all time high now driving up cost for consumer.Make alot of sense don't it.

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It's no different than backing up your hard drive that contains software you only purchased one copy of.

I have purchased the same cd and dvd multiple times in the past. My favorite cd always seems to get a nice long gouge or scratch right across a section of my favorite song. Same holds true for DVD media.

I can't begin to tell you how many CD's my kids broke when they were young. First thing I do when I buy a new CD or DVD is back it up and put the original away for safe keeping.

I do not see anything wrong with doing this and neither should anyother consumer. Big business expands the scope of piracy to engulf things like this in order to FORCE consumers to buy it again and again.

If I am the one stealing then why do I feel robbed?

---

I'm not saying your doing anything wrong but there are too many that are abusing the fair-use right act(making profit).These are the ones that should getting the third degree but i don't blame studios for trying to protect there investment.People say o well the CE have tons of dollars but look how the record industries have falling to a point they can't recover.Picture yourself as a CEO & the monthly reports come in that your losing billion of dollars due to piracy.What would you do nothing or protect your investment that people are stealing ?

Originally posted by chaos_zzz:

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bd is better, hd-dvd shouldn't be supported it's a waste of time and money, those factories should be producing more bd players and burners instead of making something that ppl will have to trohw away once this war is over.

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you are exactly right

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Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Sony is part of the BDA,Stealing software is a whole different issue & another tread.

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Backing up media you bought is not stealing. I'm sorry for your brainwashing but that is not my fault, nor my problem.

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When you bought that disc how many did you buy ? 1. I'm sorry there are so many out there that claim they are backing up the disc they bought but piracy is at a all time high now driving up cost for consumer.Make alot of sense don't it.

---

It's no different than backing up your hard drive that contains software you only purchased one copy of.

I have purchased the same cd and dvd multiple times in the past. My favorite cd always seems to get a nice long gouge or scratch right across a section of my favorite song. Same holds true for DVD media.

I can't begin to tell you how many CD's my kids broke when they were young. First thing I do when I buy a new CD or DVD is back it up and put the original away for safe keeping.

I do not see anything wrong with doing this and neither should anyother consumer. Big business expands the scope of piracy to engulf things like this in order to FORCE consumers to buy it again and again.

If I am the one stealing then why do I feel robbed?

---

I'm not saying your doing anything wrong but there are too many that are abusing the fair-use right act(making profit).These are the ones that should getting the third degree but i don't blame studios for trying to protect there investment.People say o well the CE have tons of dollars but look how the record industries have falling to a point they can't recover.Picture yourself as a CEO & the monthly reports come in that your losing billion of dollars due to piracy.What would you do nothing or protect your investment that people are stealing ?

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and you are right too, thats why i buy double copys and all the cd's i want instead of download or copy, I think that if piracy stays up then there will be alot less new artist because they cant get signed due to profits.

Get em NexGen. Now im gona back up my House and my car. I just bought a Coke, Im gona back that up too. My key board is getting old. Im gona back it up to. If I had an X-box, I would dang sure back that thing up.

I do like to read other's comments. Like a joke page. Any thing that does not go their way does not mean any thing cause overall HD sales are low or what ever. I like this site cause they wait to make sure #s and facts are correct before putting it out as news.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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I'm not saying your doing anything wrong but there are too many that are abusing the fair-use right act(making profit). These are the ones that should getting the third degree but i don't blame studios for trying to protect there investment.

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They prosecute whether it's for profit or not. They don't want you to have the right to copy your media for any purpose whatsoever.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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People say o well the CE have tons of dollars but look how the record industries have falling to a point they can't recover.

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The easiest place to put blame is on piracy because it can in no way be validated as true or false. Sad truth is most artists nowadays aren't very good. Why should studios expect to be rewarded for flooding the market with low quality goods at high quality pricing?

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Picture yourself as a CEO & the monthly reports come in that your losing billion of dollars due to piracy.What would you do nothing or protect your investment that people are stealing ?

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I sure as heck wouldn't be attacking my consumer base. I would be firing those individuals within my company who are unable to grow and adapt to the changing technologies.

Originally posted by glasssd:

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Get em NexGen. Now im gona back up my House and my car. I just bought a Coke, Im gona back that up too. My key board is getting old. Im gona back it up to. If I had an X-box, I would dang sure back that thing up.

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Maybe you should restore the backup of your brain.


...Sorry, just seemed funny, was just my meager attempt at comedy. :P

Maybe you should restore the backup of your brain.


...Sorry, just seemed funny, was just my meager attempt at comedy. :P

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I am getting old. Would not be a bad idea. Do you think that would take a 4 layer BD or mabey just a floppy disk.

Originally posted by chaos_zzz:

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bd is better

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- Oh this ought to be fun.

OK, how?

Cos it sure as hell isn't "better" on image quality.

Nor is it any "better" on audio quality.

Blu-ray is by far the more expensive format.

HD DVD has the most movie content.

Hollywood studio support is pretty even (but when you include the large independents HD DVD actually leads, 38 : 41, IIRC).

.....and despite claiming a lot of CE support the Sony PS3 and S300 render all that pretty much redundant.

So just in what way is the game console format "better", hmmmmmmm?

Bit stream = more information per second
More information per second = beter quality
More storage
More Disk sales.
Not that any information or facts or anything matter to you.
Spin away.

Originally posted by glasssd:

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Bit stream = more information per second
More information per second = beter quality
More storage
More Disk sales.
Not that any information or facts or anything matter to you.
Spin away.

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lol i bet he didnt like that
@ hughjars 38:41 is not a lead you idiot that means they're behind, you were saying that blu-ray has a 41:38 lead, before posting make sure you have it worded correct, and hd-dvd doesnt look or sound any better than blu-ray.

Peace

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Just stop now because you haven't backed up anything you said i have proved you wrong just take it like a man or woman & deal with it.

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Balaam is right: It's a waste of time to try and debate here, because these PS3 fanboys can't seem to comprehend a detailed analysis of this format war.

Simple thing: BR BOGO (buy-one-get-one free) sales are counted in Neilsen numbers, HD-DVD promos are NOT. So HD-DVD discs that are out in people's hands are NOT counted, and a single purchase counts as 2 discs for BR.

If you can't see how that inflates Neilsen numbers, then discussion is hopeless.

(and I'm not saying that BR is doing anything wrong - it's great marketing, because they convince non-critical thinkers like yourself that they are dominating.)

Sheep.

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uh how do you know that hd-dvd BOGO's are not counted? and how do you know that blu-ray does get the BOGO sales counted.

Peace

Quote:

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Originally posted by glasssd:

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Bit stream = more information per second
More information per second = beter quality
More storage
More Disk sales.
Not that any information or facts or anything matter to you.
Spin away.

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lol i bet he didnt like that
@ hughjars 38:41 is not a lead you idiot that means they're behind, you were saying that blu-ray has a 41:38 lead, before posting make sure you have it worded correct, and hd-dvd doesnt look or sound any better than blu-ray.

Peace

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I don't know where that 41:38 come from because thats totally false.Like always i got to bring truth to these forums.

Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending November 25th

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...0207/index.php

WE: BD-72% HDD-28% YTD: BD-65% HDD-35% SI: BD-62% HDD-38%


YTD is 65-BD 35-HD i would like to see a break down of that insane 41:38 figure or thats Hughjars playing with numbers again trying to twist them in his favor....lol

Originally posted by hughjars:

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Hollywood studio support is pretty even (but when you include the large independents HD DVD actually leads, 38 : 41, IIRC).

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Thats a joke right HD-DVD only have two exclusive Hollywood studios.Paramount & Universal.Blu-Ray has five Sony Pictures,FOX,Lion gate pictures,Walt Disney,MGM.

Thats five of seven how can you say there are even...lol

Well we can add New-Line to that list because they don't have a HD-DVD title listed for them in 2007 or 2008.Also i you can expect Dimension Films(Weinstein Company}to that list because they was exclusive to HD-DVD(they haven't released a HD-DVD movie since june) but have stated that they are taking another path which mean they are coming to BD.

CES 2008 is going to tell you how all these studios feel about either format so expect a lot of shakeup to HD-DVD that week.

Originally posted by glasssd:

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Bit stream = more information per second
More information per second = beter quality

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- ....and this is precisely the kind of half-understood nonsense that the Blu-ray gang love to spread.

When you get to a certain point uincreasing the bit-rate does not add any quality.
It merely adds 'noise'.

In any event the 51gb x1.5 spin speed HD DVD disc has a higher raw bitrate than Blu-ray can manage.

Originally posted by glasssd:

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More storage

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- Nope.

HD DVD now offers 51gb (which is actually about 4gbs - in reality- higher than the 47gb max Blu-ray can manage).

Originally posted by glasssd:

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More Disk sales.

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- Yeah, just over 2 million sales in well over a year now in a market that sees annual sales of 750 million +.

Fail.

Originally posted by nextgen76:

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I don't know where that 41:38 come from

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- Wow, imagine my surprise.

That's because you don't know the subject half as well as you love to pretend and also thanks to your obvious Blu-bias you have real problems reading what is actually written, clearly.

Try again, the number was about studios, not a ratio or percentage about sales numbers.

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more than 41 studios and distributors currently supporting HD DVD worldwide

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http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/417

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Graffeo also said that the HD DVD format now has the support of 75 per cent of European independent film studios.

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http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment...cleid=880721756

Your small & independent Blu-ray studio count ought to be on one of your fanzine sites somewhere, go look it up yourself.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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Originally posted by chaos_zzz:

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bd is better

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- Oh this ought to be fun.

OK, how?

Cos it sure as hell isn't "better" on image quality.

Nor is it any "better" on audio quality.

Blu-ray is by far the more expensive format.

HD DVD has the most movie content.

Hollywood studio support is pretty even (but when you include the large independents HD DVD actually leads, 38 : 41, IIRC).

.....and despite claiming a lot of CE support the Sony PS3 and S300 render all that pretty much redundant.

So just in what way is the game console format "better", hmmmmmmm?

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And yet BR is selling better...

Originally posted by hughjars:

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That's because you don't know the subject half as well as you love to pretend and also thanks to your obvious Blu-bias you have real problems reading what is actually written, clearly.

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I understood you but you mix Hollywood studios with independent studios.Two completely different things.

Originally posted by Hughjars:

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Hollywood studio support is pretty even (but when you include the large independents HD DVD actually leads, 38 : 41, IIRC).

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Independent studios don't move numbers nowhere near Major Hollywood studios nice try.

Quote:

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Graffeo also said that the HD DVD format now has the support of 75 per cent of European independent film studios.

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How can you explain the 3-1 advantage Blu-Ray has in Europe.Those independent studios are really paying off over there.

Europeans love Blu-ray over HD-DVD

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/592652

Originally posted by hughjars:

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Costs are the bottom line here, they are all the industry will be interested in.

The truth is HD DVD is the lower cost (and therefore more profitable) format.

Blu-ray simply costs too much to make and just isn't selling enough discs, despite their synthetic brew-ha-ha about ratios and percentages.

All those new & very expensive facilities to reach sales of just over 2 million disc sales in a retail disc market selling 750 million + is nothing to be shouting about.

HD DVD doesn't have anything like the same worries as it costs practically nothing when compared.

I agree about how many people see upscaling as high def.
The thing is that that is a disaster for Blu-ray, not HD DVD.

As people renew their SD DVD player they will be most likely to buy a fine upscaling HD DVD player for the same sort of money they were expecting to pay for a decent upscaling SD DVD player.

HD DVD could care less if they spend a year playing cheap SD DVDs on that, eventually SD & HD DVD will come together on the one disc and if you have an HD TV you'll get HD, if not you'll get a nice upscale.

Nice & easy and something which Blu-ray (at well over double the price) simply cannot compete with..

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keep doing copy/paste on every bluray topic,it still wont help hd-dvd sell.btw how much do they pay you to be an hd-dvd fanboy and spokesperson?

lol and why hasnt the "cheap hardware" outsold the more expensive one.dont worry im sure you can get a job at mcdonalds after bluray wins the format war.

Oh look, once again BIGnewb (senior member - so s/he ought to know better but clearly doesn't) true to type is back resorting to laughably weak & idiotic personal attacks.

Oh well, it's only to be expected & par for the course really, what do they have left when the Blu myths are exploded?

Nevermind.

(and keep it to yourself that the majority of Blu-ray releases are on their single layer 25gb discs, eh?

Keep the people ignorant seems to be the Blu motto and anyone exposing their lies and PR BS just has to be a 'fanboy'.
Pathetic.)

Originally posted by nextgen76:

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How can you explain the 3-1 advantage Blu-Ray has in Europe.

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- Er, 'cause of Blu-ray hitching a ride on the PS3, that's all.

Originally posted by nextgen76:

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Those independent studios are really paying off over there.

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- Typical Nextgen trolling.

S/he can't accept facts in this when first told them and when they are pointed out and proved s/he just moves on to make some ridiculous comment about what s/he thinks the effect of HD DVD's studio lead means
(and naturally at all points it must be worthless or bad for HD DVD).

If the US market is tiny & immature (and it is) then the European high def retail disc market is minute.

Once again you're making mountains out of molehills and trying to judge a situation way too early in the day for any of that.

The truth (I suspect even you guys know but are afraid to admit) is that it hasn't even really got going yet.

High def sales are very small and trying to exaggerate the current situation into some sort of 'win' is just ludicrous.

Blu-ray has nothing of substance over HD DVD now, certainly nothing technical
(barring a slight capacity per layer difference no-one but the most geeky of geeks could care less about; it's certainly going to mean nothing to the general public, just like that - now actually incorrect - half-understood simplistic nonsense about bitrates the Blu-ray fans 'thought' they had as an advantage).

The small sales 'lead' it currently holds over HD DVD (purely because it is tied to a game console that was always bound to sell in millions even if it is a flop in it's own market) is meaningless when set against the reality of both formats combined holding less than 4% of movie disc sales.

Wake up.

Quote:

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uh how do you know that hd-dvd BOGO's are not counted? and how do you know that blu-ray does get the BOGO sales counted.Peace

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Because I do research and don't just repeat what I see some other fanboy repeat. Do you REALLY need a link on this?

If you really think about it, marketing is a VERY important factor here as stated before.
Think about it this way: Apple's iPod is technically inferior to a lot of other MP3 players out there. Yet, the iPod is dominating sales. How do you think that it got to be so popular? Marketing, of course.

Escalante

One correction to the thread:
Fox is officially dropping its support.

Quote:

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Oh look, once again BIGnewb (senior member - so s/he ought to know better but clearly doesn't) true to type is back resorting to laughably weak & idiotic personal attacks.

Oh well, it's only to be expected & par for the course really, what do they have left when the Blu myths are exploded?

Nevermind.

(and keep it to yourself that the majority of Blu-ray releases are on their single layer 25gb discs, eh?

Keep the people ignorant seems to be the Blu motto and anyone exposing their lies and PR BS just has to be a 'fanboy'.
Pathetic.)

Originally posted by nextgen76:

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How can you explain the 3-1 advantage Blu-Ray has in Europe.

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- Er, 'cause of Blu-ray hitching a ride on the PS3, that's all.

Originally posted by nextgen76:

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Those independent studios are really paying off over there.

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- Typical Nextgen trolling.

S/he can't accept facts in this when first told them and when they are pointed out and proved s/he just moves on to make some ridiculous comment about what s/he thinks the effect of HD DVD's studio lead means
(and naturally at all points it must be worthless or bad for HD DVD).

If the US market is tiny & immature (and it is) then the European high def retail disc market is minute.

Once again you're making mountains out of molehills and trying to judge a situation way too early in the day for any of that.

The truth (I suspect even you guys know but are afraid to admit) is that it hasn't even really got going yet.

High def sales are very small and trying to exaggerate the current situation into some sort of 'win' is just ludicrous.

Blu-ray has nothing of substance over HD DVD now, certainly nothing technical
(barring a slight capacity per layer difference no-one but the most geeky of geeks could care less about; it's certainly going to mean nothing to the general public, just like that - now actually incorrect - half-understood simplistic nonsense about bitrates the Blu-ray fans 'thought' they had as an advantage).

The small sales 'lead' it currently holds over HD DVD (purely because it is tied to a game console that was always bound to sell in millions even if it is a flop in it's own market) is meaningless when set against the reality of both formats combined holding less than 4% of movie disc sales.

Wake up.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by glasssd:

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Bit stream = more information per second
More information per second = beter quality

---

- ....and this is precisely the kind of half-understood nonsense that the Blu-ray gang love to spread.

When you get to a certain point uincreasing the bit-rate does not add any quality.
It merely adds 'noise'.

In any event the 51gb x1.5 spin speed HD DVD disc has a higher raw bitrate than Blu-ray can manage.

Originally posted by glasssd:

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More storage

---

- Nope.

HD DVD now offers 51gb (which is actually about 4gbs - in reality- higher than the 47gb max Blu-ray can manage).

Originally posted by glasssd:

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More Disk sales.

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- Yeah, just over 2 million sales in well over a year now in a market that sees annual sales of 750 million +.

Fail.

Originally posted by nextgen76:

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I don't know where that 41:38 come from

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- Wow, imagine my surprise.

That's because you don't know the subject half as well as you love to pretend and also thanks to your obvious Blu-bias you have real problems reading what is actually written, clearly.

Try again, the number was about studios, not a ratio or percentage about sales numbers.

Quote:

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more than 41 studios and distributors currently supporting HD DVD worldwide

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http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/417

Quote:

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Graffeo also said that the HD DVD format now has the support of 75 per cent of European independent film studios.

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http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment...cleid=880721756

Your small & independent Blu-ray studio count ought to be on one of your fanzine sites somewhere, go look it up yourself.

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Wow. I would hate to be on a merry-go-round while you were around. Blu-Ray is so fast that computer chips cant read all of the info. O, BUT HD-dud is going to go faster, I guess for no reason.
3 layer hd is going to have more than 2 layer Blu. Thats funny. I guess you did not know that Blu has already produced 4 layer 100 gig disk and is working on an 8 layer while hd is just talking about it.

If you would ever like to talk about lens focal pick up and no possible adjustment in the Toshiba players. I would LOVE to talk about it. This is a large part of my job working with Spectrometers. I have seen the insides of the Tosh players, as can anyone else.

fanboys are sooo funny..
HD-DUD and Blu-rry AHAHAHAHAHAHA

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I do like to read other's comments. Like a joke page. Any thing that does not go their way does not mean any thing cause overall HD sales are low or what ever. I like this site cause they wait to make sure #s and facts are correct before putting it out as news.

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sarcasm?? news?? It's well known by us old timers that every little bit of propaganda by whatever faction wants to make a noise is posted on this site as "news".. blah blah blah.. this is winning..that is winning.. back to reality.. 90% of the world is quite happy watching plain old dvd on 24" worn out crt tv's. It's glaringly obvious that none of these so called "format exclusive" releases have not had a standard dvd issue too.. they just don't dare post the sales of that format against the HD formats... because then everybody would see they are being conned out of large amounts of cash for hardware and media that costs no more to create yet again!

Now in the real world... things get used until they wear out or are no longer serving the purpose they were acquired for.. then the choice, to replace with similar or upgrade. That applies to everything from a biro to a house.
Again.. supply and demand.. you will be sold whatever the salesmen believe they can make most profit from.. full stop..
HD media.. b******s!!.. give me good films and tv programs first and then just maybe when my hardware reaches the end of it's life it's possible.. but only if the content is worth it.
As you can see.. I live in the real world where there are far more important things than this constant bleating on about HD media formats.. I don't care which one is better.. I don't care which one wins.. I just want to be provided with good entertainment.. if a film is good I will still enjoy it on an old tv off vhs tape, as will the majority of the planet.. unless they are rich enough to have money to burn on hype and "must have" nonsense.

Now as to which one will win.. probably neither because at the current ever decreasing circle of (enforced) hardware replacement there will be something else along in the next 4 years or so... long before the death of bog standard dvd.

im eagerly awaiting The Simpons Movie on Blu-ray along with Pirates: at worlds end. hopefully amazon.com can come through for me with the simpsons movie and have it here before xmas, but i doubt it. its nice saving 30% or more on your movies, free shipping bla bla.

i wouldn't be surprised if that ratio increases to even 4:1 if not higher by xmas. wonder which format will have the upperhand in terms of sales of the upcoming harry potter movie? i personally never got into the series nor have any intention on buying the movie, but still would like to be entertained. it'd interesting if hd-dvd came out on top. boy would there be a fanboy frenzy. atleast if it happens we wouldn't have to hear about the pointless and often redundant attachment rate arguments although after writing that im sure that argument might seem stronger by some, but i doubt it'll happen.

ps. riotard,i posted on my profile my 360 along with the prepaid package, letter from m$, and a couple of other photos. check'm out if you please as you were the one who called me out on that ;) (sorry elfman)

Originally posted by glasssd:

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Blu-Ray is so fast that computer chips cant read all of the info.

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- Where do you get garbage like this from, huh?

.....and you really believe it, eh?

Jeez.

Originally posted by glasssd:

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BUT HD-dud is going to go faster, I guess for no reason.

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- "HD dud"......wow, how original, you'll be talking about M$ next.
Are the er, 'special' people over at Blu-ray.com still talking in that infantile manner like that?!

The reason HD DVD can go faster is very straight-forward and easy physics.

The triple layer disc (as we can see in the original 45gb TL HD DVD disc specs) spins at 1.5x speed.
That equates to a raw bit-rate of 1.5x 36.55mbps = 54.825mbps which exceeds Blu-ray's theoretical max raw data bit-rate (which is actually 53.95)

Originally posted by glasssd:

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3 layer hd is going to have more than 2 layer Blu. Thats funny. I guess you did not know that Blu has already produced 4 layer 100 gig disk and is working on an 8 layer while hd is just talking about it.

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- ....and so what?

Everybody has stuff in the lab (even a group that claims to be able to get 10 layers of each format on the one disc).

The fact of the matter is that 51gb TL HD DVD has been approved and is available for use right now.

Blu-ray meanwhile has horrible problems even getting their existing & very expensive (so expensive Sony are still subsidising it) 50gb DL BD disc to work properly (which is why in practise they never exceed 47gbs on it cos the error rate goes through the roof).

Theoretically possible does not mean 'easy' or 'just around the corner' either.
IIRC the Hitachi demo a few months back would have needed even more new production facilities to get into production.
Right now that isn't going to happen.
Producers are worried enough as things stand about committing even more money to Blu-ray production (which is partly why there are so few production facilities for it globally compared to DVD/HD DVD).

Just cos in theory it might be possible (with new hardware) to end up with 100gb or even 200gb BD discs that does not mean they will appear (more than dual layer was/is possible with existing red laser tech - see HD VMD for proof - but no-one bothered cos the demand was not there).

Similarly there is no indication whatsoever that the TV or movie industry has any interest in disc sizes bigger than 50/51gb.

If you don't get industry interest you don't get the discs as the economies of scale through large production do not arise to make the discs affordable in the mass-market.

Originally posted by glasssd:

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If you would ever like to talk about lens focal pick up and no possible adjustment in the Toshiba players. I would LOVE to talk about it.

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- Quote Wiki or anywhere else all you like but that does not mean zip to me.

What do you want to get into, huh?

Do you want to seriously state that even though TL was part of the original HD DVD spec and even though Toshiba were developing 51gb TL discs they somehow just forgot about that when it came to producing gen 2 and 3 of their range of HD DVD players?

Go ahead. That makes sense and is credible. Not.

Originally posted by glasssd:

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This is a large part of my job working with Spectrometers. I have seen the insides of the Tosh players, as can anyone else.

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- Yeah tear-downs are hardly unknown on all 3 gens of Toshiba player by now and not one of them is making the kinds of claims you have started to (no possible adjustment in the Toshiba players).

But wow, you better get a move on.
If you're really sure that you're on to something that everyone else has missed then I suggest you start contacting as many magazines and publishers as you can.
Hurry!

LMAO

Take an old PS2 apart. There is an adjustment for the optical pick up. About half way through the cycle Sony quit putting the adjustment in the PS2 due to extra cost. The adjustment would make +-.3%. The toshiba player has no such adjustment mechinisim on it. The adjustment that it would take to change the focus from a 15gig to a 17gig is hudge.
That was you that said that "When you get to a certain point uincreasing the bit-rate does not add any quality.
It merely adds 'noise'.

In any event the 51gb x1.5 spin speed HD DVD disc has a higher raw bitrate than Blu-ray can manage. "
I was just playing with your spin.
Its getting dizzy in here.

i wonder why hughjars is so combative with everyone?

I better get a move on. That's cute. I would really like to know how they are going to get the extra 12% of information on each layer. Did they accidentally space the pits too far apart on the original format and can now put the burn pits closer together. Since you have connections and know everything, Please tell us how they will do this. Me and the rest of the world would like to know. We all really would like to know. I will be waiting on an answer.

Or are you saying that something has changed on the second and third gen player and everyone that bought the $99.00 player will be left out in the cold.

Originally posted by jove:

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i wonder why hughjars is so combative with everyone?

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I think its his job.?

Quote:

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Originally posted by jove:

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i wonder why hughjars is so combative with everyone?

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I think its his job.?

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Seems like it. Because hes quite passionate about it. he clearly attacks everyone with a paassin. And i noticed sony seems to be his biggest enemy. Not panasonic or any other company behind blu ray...
tell me im wrong...

Originally posted by jove:

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i wonder why hughjars is so combative with everyone?

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I think he's like a lot of us that get tired of all the misinformation from the BR camp. HD-DVD has it's misinfo too, but as you can see here there are MANY more one-sentence "BR pwns! BR T-Bags HD-DVD!" type people... that's how that crap spreads.

And it's nice to have some clarity every now and then.

Quote:

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Quote:

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Originally posted by jove:

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i wonder why hughjars is so combative with everyone?

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I think its his job.?

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Seems like it. Because hes quite passionate about it. he clearly attacks everyone with a paassin. And i noticed sony seems to be his biggest enemy. Not panasonic or any other company behind blu ray...
tell me im wrong...

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No hughjars is the spokesman for HD-DVD. He hates anything he doesn't support. I respect all peoples opinion but hes to extreme for my liken.

So after all that back and forth what do we have?

HD DVD may have the technical advantage.
HD DVD may have the cheaper players and the advantage in standalone sales.
HD DVD may have the slight advantage in potential catalogue and studio support.
However, the Nielsen numbers have shown YTD and SI figures that favor BluRay in the small HDM market.

What does this mean in the long run? We can only speculate as the game is still early in the first quarter.

I for one will continue to support both formats and enjoy HD movies. As long as I get the movies I want to see on either format it really doesn't matter who wins. So what if one or both formats becomes obsolete in the future? What matters is I enjoy the movies today. Carpe diem folks!

Quote:

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wonder why hughjars is so combative with everyone?

I think he's like a lot of us that get tired of all the misinformation from the BR camp. HD-DVD has it's misinfo too, but as you can see here there are MANY more one-sentence "BR pwns! BR T-Bags HD-DVD!" type people... that's how that crap spreads.

No hughjars is the spokesman for HD-DVD. He hates anything he doesn't support. I respect all peoples opinion but hes to extreme for my liken.

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There are ways to put your point forward without eliciting the response that he's been getting from the BR side. There's a way to start a lively, respectful, and meaningful debate and there's a way to respond to "one-sentence type people" without eliciting more of the same responses. Stooping down to their level and not taking the high road in your posts is just NOT the way to do it.

Originally posted by elfman12:

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I think he's like a lot of us that get tired of all the misinformation from the BR camp.

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- Correct.

I'm a regular punter like anyone else who got sick of those lying b*stards trying to lie to and manipulate me.

Some people seem not to care about that (or worse like it if it's a company they 'support') but I do.

That's the problem with their viral poison, it's always simplistic, often deeply ignorant and, amusingly when it's as fake as this campaign has been, ultimately counter-productive because the truth will out.
They reap what they sow.

Originally posted by elfman12:

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And it's nice to have some clarity every now and then.

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- Thank you (and you are far from alone in letting me know you appreciate my comments & info).

Originally posted by juankerr:

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Stooping down to their level and not taking the high road in your posts is just NOT the way to do it.

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- Juankerr you're making the mistake in presuming most of the Blu-ray fanclub here are interested in debate.

Clearly they are not, they are here because they (try not to laugh to hard now) 'love' Sony, the PS, the PSP, the PS2 & the PS3 and want to 'support' them and their beloved format(s).

As far as they are concerned they believe everything they ever read on the likes of Blu-ray.com and anyone who dares to question or refute that idiotic fanboy nonsense just has to (a) 'hate ' Sony and (b) be an HD DVD fanboy.

It's pretty tragic really but that is how much of this so-called 'debate' is.

It's more a misinformation campaign than anything.
They continually spread false info about what HD DVD can do and what Blu-ray can do.
But I do take a perverse pleasure in correcting their ridiculous BS.

You can aways tell when a PR campaign has run out of steam and has nothing left to say, inevitably they start slamming the opposition with lies and half truth, just as BD have done for an age now.

Since the start of this year (2007) and CES Blu-ray have done nothing but attempt to bury HD DVD under a ton of their absurd BS.

A few examples include their invariably claiming pending developments would never come (like 51gb TL discs or the Chinese players) or else it was things like them claiming HD DVD's moves towards the mass-market through things like sub $200 (nevermind sub $100) pricing would either never come or be matched by Blu-ray (it wasn't).

Then there was the stack of repeated misinformation about how people like Universal were going format neutral at any moment or how about that laughable BS about an XBox 360 Blu-ray add-on?

None of this kind of lying BS, by the way, was ever matched by similar coming from the HD DVD side.

hughjars: I agree that's there's misinformation and propaganda on both sides.

But the way you respond to the other side only invites a more belligerent response. Everything escalates and the issues get lost in personal insults and worse. (This is exactly what happened when the HDM sections of avsforums was shut down for a while.) You can be a good spokesman for HD DVD but the way you come across can put off some people and diminishes the impact and perceived veracity of your argument:

Quote:

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wonder why hughjars is so combative with everyone?

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Quote:

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hughjars: I agree that's there's misinformation and propaganda on both sides.

But the way you respond to the other side only invites a more belligerent response. Everything escalates and the issues get lost in personal insults and worse. (This is exactly what happened when the HDM sections of avsforums was shut down for a while.) You can be a good spokesman for HD DVD but the way you come across can put off some people and diminishes the impact and veracity of your argument:

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Quote:

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wonder why hughjars is so combative with everyone?

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If its anyone thats here with Misinformation & a Bunch of BS its him thats why he come across rude to people because he expect us to believe all the lies & BS he learn from AVS forum that he hangs around.I don't need to hang around forums to find out stuff because if i don't own it i sell it at bestbuy.He claim to bring truth but have yet to own up that Blu-Ray has out HD-DVD everyday this year but like him its aways some PR spin like he do in all his posted like the attachment rate bull.Most of the people here knows that there are BS coming from both side but he don't see that, in his eyes Toshiba never do anything wrong but its always was BDA(Sony) fault.He was the only one that rant & raved this format war was over when Paramount became exclsive to HD-DVD & when Venturer announce there 200 HD-DVD player if theres anyone here that he should point the finger to its himself.Because everything he has said came back to bite him in the ass.

Here is a what im talking about ex:

Originally posted by hughjars:

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Then there was the stack of repeated misinformation about how people like Universal were going format neutral at any moment or how about that laughable BS about an XBox 360 Blu-ray add-on?

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No one from BDA camp said this crap it came from Microsoft mouth who backs HD-DVD.

Originally posted by PeteMoore:

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However, despite the obvious preference for HD-DVD, it seems Microsoft isn't willing to completely tie its fate to the format just yet. During CES 2006, Microsoft's Xbox corporate VP of worldwide marketing and publishing Peter Moore told Japanese site ITmedia that a Blu-ray Xbox 360 peripheral could appear for the system if the need arises. Moore admitted that Microsoft isn't sure of the next-generation format war's outcome, with the worst-case scenario being a repeat of the Beta vs. VHS war of the '80s.

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http://www.gamespot.com/news/6142137.html


This is what im talking about he is misguided & always looking to blame something on Sony.

NexGen. Fine post. I'm not going to waist my time providing info to him as it is a waist of time. He does not care. blu-raystats shows 172 movies on Blu-Ray disk use the 50gig disk. Hug says above " (and keep it to yourself that the majority of Blu-ray releases are on their single layer 25gb discs, eh?

Keep the people ignorant seems to be the Blu motto and anyone exposing their lies and PR BS just has to be a 'fanboy'.
Pathetic.)"

Is he telling the truth. Yes. 47% of Blu's movies are on the 50gig disk. Is he twisting the truth. Yes. Reading his statement would lead you to beleive that there are very few Blu movies on the 50gig disk. If you beleive everything that he says, then he has done his job.

But it does not matter. As he will state, it is early in the game, so it does not matter. I'm through with this thread, but i will check back to see if my earlier question got answered.

Wow, can't post any articles here relating to any HD news without creating a firestorm of off the topic posts.

I have to agree though, with Sony having 1,000,000 + PS3's out there, capable of playing their Blu-Ray format, you would think that the lead would be much higher.

Originally posted by goodswipe:

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Wow, can't post any articles here relating to any HD news without creating a firestorm of off the topic posts.

I have to agree though, with Sony having 1,000,000 + PS3's out there, capable of playing their Blu-Ray format, you would think that the lead would be much higher.

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You can come here & post your opinion & i don't mind weather it for or against Blu-Ray but it has come to a point whenever someone speak something good about Blu-Ray they are attacked & treated like a lair.This trolling Blu-Ray post got to stop.I love to see things from different views & not have someone force there views on me or anyone else in this forum.

True NextGen76, I know what you mean but, the same thing happens with HD-DVD. When a news article is released on there side, the same thing happens. You end up with a shit storm of posts that go off topic, usually due to someone bashing HD-DVD. Anyways, I wish the madness would end...lol.

Quote:

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You can come here & post your opinion & i don't mind weather it for or against Blu-Ray but it has come to a point whenever someone speak something good about Blu-Ray they are attacked & treated like a lair.This trolling Blu-Ray post got to stop.I love to see things from different views & not have someone force there views on me or anyone else in this forum.

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SOrry, man. There's no way a reasonable person can read through the messages in THIS THREAD ALONE and not see that the main attacks emanate from mostly BR fanboys. When they are responded to, you call that an attack? Get real man, I've not attacked anyone personally, and I'm in no way trolling. So try and find a way to deal with dissent... which you seem to see as an attempt to "force" you to think one way or another. If that can happen, then you must be VERY gullible. (but I'm sure you're not, so just chill)

elfman12 you're missing the point.

When the Blu-ray fanclub say they have been "attacked" that's it.
They can call everyone else a fanboy or claim they must work for a side in this or (laughably) claim you must 'love' or 'hate' a CE corporation or make bitchy sad little side comments to other posters.

But that's ok for them to do that.

If nextgen76 works in his out-of-school hours stacking shelves at Best Buy then he must be a total expert in all of this.
Very funny.

It's all true, it was on Blu-ray.com
(which amusingly I know even Sony are regretting having anything to do with & are finding it an embarrassing Frankenstein right now).

When they tell you what you've previously said, that's it (even if it is utterly wrong)

I never did say 'Blu-ray has lost when Paramount went HD DVD exclusive'; I did say that Blu-ray could no longer win.
That's not quite the same thing & obviously too subtle a difference that some find too hard to grasp.
Still why spoil that rant letting a few facts get in the way, eh?

It doesn't matter how they misrepresent or lie about it all tho cos they wish to keep things slanted in a 'just so' manner - although rather amusingly when called on it repeatedly we occasionally see one of them start to flip-out (like has happened here).

It just gets funnier and funnier tho.

I see "a majority" is now being twisted to mean "very few".
Hysterical.

They actually make fun of themselves (if they had the wit to see it) in the end.

What they really 'hate' tho is that their viral marketing BS gets taken apart & torn to shreds day-in day-out.
They really can't abide being reduced to spouting personal opinion, which, when the facts are rationally presented, is all they really have left.

Quote:

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Quote:

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You can come here & post your opinion & i don't mind weather it for or against Blu-Ray but it has come to a point whenever someone speak something good about Blu-Ray they are attacked & treated like a lair.This trolling Blu-Ray post got to stop.I love to see things from different views & not have someone force there views on me or anyone else in this forum.

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SOrry, man. There's no way a reasonable person can read through the messages in THIS THREAD ALONE and not see that the main attacks emanate from mostly BR fanboys. When they are responded to, you call that an attack? Get real man, I've not attacked anyone personally, and I'm in no way trolling. So try and find a way to deal with dissent... which you seem to see as an attempt to "force" you to think one way or another. If that can happen, then you must be VERY gullible. (but I'm sure you're not, so just chill)

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You must be guilty because i don't know why you even speaking my name i haven't made one post with your name on it.Plus this stuff has been going on for a while now its just a few of them & they now who they are.Your right there are more BR fan-boys bashing you guys in this post but this isn't half of the countless posts Hughjars & his minions have wreaked.Go back & read thur them & see for yourself.I'm done posting on this tread because it has gotten to far off topic.

BTW, for those having a hard time understanding the "free discs to boost "SALES" figures" deal, check this out:



(I saw this on a forum and thought it was a good description)

The Nielsen Videoscan sales numbers for last week were leaked early by Dave Vaughn over at avsforums:

BluRay = 76
HD DVD = 24

POTC3 was the big mover followed by Superbad a distant second.

I guess Bourne will be HD DVD's last hope of winning one week this year. (Don't look at me - I already bought my copy.) So to the HD DVD owners here - you know who you are: error5, eatsushi, dblbogey7, etc - get your copy of Bourne Ultimatum on HD DVD now so we can give HD at least one weekly win this year.

Don't look at me either. I've done my share of HD DVD shopping this week.

I already have Ultimatum PLUS I got the Planet Earth box for my dad PLUS the Harry Potter set for my niece. In addition, I ordered 8 titles from the amazon BOGO.

The problem is I've run out of gift recipients.

So if HD DVD loses again next week it wasn't because of me ;)

juankerr: I bought my copy of Bourne Ultimatum on release day plus the Harry Potter HD DVD set. ;)

We're up against stiff competition though. Lost has a big cult following and their season 3 set could be tough. The unknown factor is HSM2.

Got to check out that amazon BOGO.

I was expecting something in the vicinity of 68 Blu: 32 HD.

But 76 Blu: 24 HD is surprising. It's even higher than the Black Friday numbers, right? I guess I underestimated Pirates 3.

Anyway juankerr: I promise to get Ultimatum tonight after work and I'll also check out the amazon BOGO. The problem is my GF is a big Lost fan and my niece loves High School Musical 2. LOL!

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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But 76 Blu: 24 HD is surprising. It's even higher than the Black Friday numbers, right? I guess I underestimated Pirates 3.

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You're right. Black Friday was BD 72:HD 28. The last time HD got beaten this bad was the (approx) 80:20 when Casino Royale came out.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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You're right. Black Friday was BD 72:HD 28. The last time HD got beaten this bad was the (approx) 80:20 when Casino Royale came out.

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That's what I thought. Anyway I ordered 6 titles from the amazon BOGO and I'll also pick up the Battlestar Galactica Season 1 set together with Ultimatum.

See I'm doing my part too juankerr. LOL!

BTW did Dave Vaughn mention what HD DVD title sold the most last week? I haven't had time to go over to avs.

according to recent estimates, pirates 3 sold 160k surpassing spidey 3 which sold 130k in its first week. no official confirmation yet. can't wait for The Simpsons movie.

eatsushi: According to Dave Vaughn the best selling HD DVD title last week was Planet Earth (still going strong).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=951811&page=8

Added: The actual ratio when Casino Royale was released (week ending 3/18/07) was BD 81.7:HD 18.3.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthrea...elsen+VideoScan

Up and down the sea saw we go nothing will change just the time of the year.

Originally posted by borhan9:

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Up and down the sea saw we go nothing will change just the time of the year.

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/agree, but the MPAA want their propertarian format of choice blu-ray to succeed! on and on with the FUD from the MPAA but dvd's are leading sales and Hi-Def offers very little over DVD other than DRM for studios to lock you out of content you own.

a 3-1 lead hmm how many blu ray players inc. the ps3 have been sold, surly this should read at least 10-1? but i guess more hd-dvd owners purchase movies!

who's grandparents and parents which make up the bulk of purchasers, really care about a few more pixels when the films that hollywood churn out, we have all seen before with far better acting and more engrossing scripts, why do they think that a few green screens will actually make a film worth watching/owning?

The film and gaming industry has taken a huge uturn and are now concentrated with having the best graphics over what ppl want. content over quality i say!

NOTE TO HOLLYWOOD/GAME STUDIOS: SPECIAL EFFECTS DO NOT MAKE A GOOD FILM/GAME!