Microsoft hit with class action lawsuit over RROD

At least somebody is doing something to protect the consumer.

Highly unlikely that they'd get anything close to a refund program, but it would be interesting to see the actual numbers.

I can't imagine what the "damages" would be. They already do free replacements, extended the warranty for 3 years, and have had hardware revisions.

You didn't lose anything, sustain injury, or any pain and suffering (unless you count withdrawl from a gaming addiction as suffering). Like your options would be to turn in your 360 and get a depreciated refund or participate in the free programs MS setup over a year ago to deal with this.

Long over due & i hope Microsoft get what they deserve.

I really feel like Microsoft already did more than you could ask out of any company to satisfy the consumer. This case isn't going anywhere if it is even heard by a court.

Originally posted by AXT:

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At least somebody is doing something to protect the consumer.

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the law firm is the only one that will get anything out of this....I have sent my 360 in 5 times..and only got a 3 month xbl card...a year would be a nice way to say sorry...give ME something for my problems...not the lawyers

I don't see a point in this lawsuit as Microsoft has extended the warranty and replaces broken consoles for free, or nearly free, anyway.

They also are offering Arcade purchasers a 20GB HDD for only $20, which isn't bad at all.

The RROD "epidemic" is costing them a reported $1+ billion already so I don't really see a point in this lawsuit as they are at least attempting to fix it.

almost everyone has had a problem with the xbox 360 overheating, and breaking due to 3 red lights.

I wish they had a fix for people who have had a console for a short amount of time (just over a year w/o a warranty) to fix theirs. I have 2 sitting in my room that are dead that died in 18 months and are experiencing 1 red light.

they want my 165$ to repair them? no thanks. I hate microsoft for being so cheap and forcing me to buy a new console each year.

Originally posted by Pop_Smith:

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I don't see a point in this lawsuit as Microsoft has extended the warranty and replaces broken consoles for free, or nearly free, anyway.

They also are offering Arcade purchasers a 20GB HDD for only $20, which isn't bad at all.

The RROD "epidemic" is costing them a reported $1+ billion already so I don't really see a point in this lawsuit as they are at least attempting to fix it.

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So what happen when there warranty runs out? You still have a defective console.

if you had it 3 years i think your good.

I just find it amusing that this has been a known problem and people still purchase and complain.

@trever

Explain to me why you keep going back? You have NO right to complain. The second you purchased your second 360 as a disgruntled consumer you lost your right to complain.s

Originally posted by Pop_Smith:

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I don't see a point in this lawsuit as Microsoft has extended the warranty and replaces broken consoles for free, or nearly free, anyway.

They also are offering Arcade purchasers a 20GB HDD for only $20, which isn't bad at all.

The RROD "epidemic" is costing them a reported $1+ billion already so I don't really see a point in this lawsuit as they are at least attempting to fix it.

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This should have never happened. Even though me and my brother were lucky enough to get good xbox 360 that dont get rrod it still should not have happened and i think they definitely deserve the lawsuit.

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This should have never happened. Even though me and my brother were lucky enough to get good xbox 360 that dont get rrod it still should not have happened and i think they definitely deserve the lawsuit.

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The problem is the wrong people will end up with the money if a lawsuit was to take place (and assuming it wins). The consumer in the end will still have nothing.

Well i think i have to agree with some of you guys. If it can be proven that microsoft was aware of such a extreme failure rate and they still sold the consoles. Well they deserve whatever they get regardless if they extend my warranty or not. And this iscoming from a xbox360 owner and supporter. Just got to keep it real. Just b/c i havenot had RROD and love my xbox360 i am not going to bias my opinion on the issue.

Finally someone is taking action on this. Any other piece of consumer electronics with this high a failure rate would've been recalled long ago.

In other news Microsoft has slashed prices on the consoles through Dell.
$169 for Arcade,
$249 for Pro, and
$329 for Elite.

I had RROD on first machine and wasn't covered under warranty.
second machine had RROD sent it in for free got back a new machine.
Seems to work fine now.

Too many people in here all flamed up over nothing.
As for that lawsuit, I don't think there is probable grounds to proceed. Xbox is fixing their mistakes at their cost.

Originally posted by grkblood:

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I just find it amusing that this has been a known problem and people still purchase and complain.

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Depends when console was bought,changes were made two or more years ago that all but eliminated the heating issue which should never have happened in the first place,massive let down by MS.What cracks me up is everyone automatically assumes RROD means overheating,it's nothing more than an indicator that there's an issue with any part of the hardware or software not necessarily heating problems,but oh' it's got the rrod so it must be overeheating..lmao..

scorpNZ, plus people are also uninformed morons. Take me for instance! I will not pass up an opportunity to rattle a M$ cage.

At last

Originally posted by chubbyInc:

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I had RROD on first machine and wasn't covered under warranty. second machine had RROD sent it in for free got back a new machine.
Seems to work fine now.

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And you're happy about that? You are every Company's ideal customer. Not knowing the specifics, it seems that you paid twice as much for a 360.

Originally posted by chubbyInc:

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Too many people in here all flamed up over nothing.

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It's all relative. From your above statement, you have a high tolerance for inconvenience and a big wallet.

Originally posted by chubbyInc:

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As for that lawsuit, I don't think there is probable grounds to proceed. Xbox is fixing their mistakes at their cost.

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Agreed, unless it is determined that a recall would have been the more appropriate way to handle this mess. The one mistake that they can't fix is their reputation, even with the extended warranty. There are people who stand behind the 360 as being the best console and are very happy with the game selection. More power to them. I fall into a different category. I would have purchased a 360 if it weren't for this situation. It impressed me. But the inconvenience and nagging feeling that I would have purchased a piece of hardware that had a reputation of high failure rates had me looking elsewhere. And the fact that all of my friends had lost at least 1 360.

If the accusations in the article are proven, then I don't see why MS shouldn't be held accountable. The option of a refund should be given to anyone who is not happy, as long as they can provide the console for return and a receipt. Otherwise, too bad....buyer beware.

To me it doesn't matter that Microsoft is fixing it, extending warranties etc. If Microsoft knew about this and released it anyway that's a blow to us consumers. Why should we have to go through the inconveniences involved in sending this out for repairs for something that never should have happened in the first place?

This will send a message to businesses that this will not be tolerated. To send out a product you know will break on a huge % of consumers is wrong and is bad business.

I think Microsoft is getting what it deserves and i hope they learn a lesson from it. Microsoft shows it does not care about the consumer.

That's Why I got a PS3 and a Wii, Not worth the hassle or the price. I hate M$ anyways, they suck bad system, bad business. Hope that they learn, and realize they can't release faulty and crappy products...vista..cough..cough..

so where are the fanboys now? Matter of time and the flames will be a comin...do not start trolls and flamers..AD doesn't need to be spammed. Watch out for Nobrainer too.

Originally posted by Mez:

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scorpNZ, plus people are also uninformed morons. Take me for instance! I will not pass up an opportunity to rattle a M$ cage.

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..lol..
I'm amazed that heads have'nt rolled over the incompetence of it all,or unless the bucks been passed so much that they loss count of who was responsible [quote Dr Evil to microsoft : "Way to go a'holes"],this would've been the only time buying those extended warranties would've paid off..lol..

The problem isn't that they are fixing the machines and extended warranties (Which is a very GOOD thing on their part), its the fact they knew about the problem and let the machine go to market and defrauding the consumer. What they did was right but the machines are still having the same problem so its not fixing but a band-aid. If you piss off enough people you will finally get sued. If you were to find out who is in on the class action lawsuit it is more in likely the people who sent in the units multiple times not just once and they are just tired of it.

Originally posted by bdoggie08:

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That's Why I got a PS3 and a Wii, Not worth the hassle or the price. I hate M$ anyways, they suck bad system, bad business. Hope that they learn, and realize they can't release faulty and crappy products...vista..cough..cough..

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Fanboyism nipped in the bud.

Originally posted by leo8013:

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The problem isn't that they are fixing the machines and extended warranties (Which is a very GOOD thing on their part), its the fact they knew about the problem and let the machine go to market and defrauding the consumer. What they did was right but the machines are still having the same problem so its not fixing but a band-aid. If you piss off enough people you will finally get sued. If you were to find out who is in on the class action lawsuit it is more in likely the people who sent in the units multiple times not just once and they are just tired of it.

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Well, I'm not an expert on their warranty policy, but it seems that there are people who purchased the first wave of 360's and did not qualify for the extended warranty. At least those are some claims being made that I've read. Maybe their original factory warranty already expired and they couldn't get into the extended 3-year plan. If that is the case, then is that really "very GOOD" on their part. Shouldn't all 360's made before a certain time be covered? chubbyInc mentioned that his first RROD wasn't covered. I have no idea why (maybe it was flashed?), but that would just seem very unfair. Just seems like the extended warranty was a half-a$$ attempt to save face.

Originally posted by DarkJello:

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I really feel like Microsoft already did more than you could ask out of any company to satisfy the consumer. This case isn't going anywhere if it is even heard by a court.

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Maybe if M$ gave a LIFETIME warranty for a known-to-be-defectively-designed product (or a 5-8 year warranty, figuring that to be the avg lifespan of such a product), you could say that they did enough to satisfy the owner.

I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

M$ handled the situation badly to begin with.. but this lawsuit is a real no go.. they will string it out and laugh all the way to the bank. This is the kind of stupidity which keeps lawyers in business.. Every faulty console is an item in it's own right.. and a customer complaint x 1.. The judge will probably throw it out as normal consumer laws cover all these problems.

If people want to bring a class action against M$ then why not pick something worthwhile.. Like antitrust and compulsory bundling of software and operating systems through kickback manipulation and collusion with retailers?

about time they took some flack after the abuse of customers.

the extended guarantee was a start but far too late for the ppl with issues.

I cant believe Microshit STILL has not fixed the RROD. I never bought the xflop for this reason..I just decided to hold onto my Wolfdale 3.8ghz XP monster and invest in a 1TB hard drive instead. Result? All my games play better than 1080P and if something breaks..ram..mb..hd, I dont have to ship it back to microsoft to fix it. I fix it myself! This in addition to the onslaught of great pc games coming: Dragon Age, Diablo 3, Saced 2, Divine Divinity 2, Dead Space, Fallout 3, Far Cry 2..list goes on and on. Anyone think that people will think twice before invesing in Microsofts new next next gen system 2 years from now?

Oh, and then there is the Mame emulator with all the kickass CHDs!

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The lawsuit cites articles published in credible gaming trade journals each of which show that Microsoft knew in November 2005 that over 50 percent of the initial sales launch Xbox 360 consoles were defective.

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After reading this paragraph what came to my mind was the ABBA song Money, money, money :)

I lodge a question can Microsoft ever have a year that they can go free with no legal problems at all???

Originally posted by windsong:

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I cant believe Microshit STILL has not fixed the RROD. I never bought the xflop for this reason..I just decided to hold onto my Wolfdale 3.8ghz XP monster and invest in a 1TB hard drive instead. Result? All my games play better than 1080P and if something breaks..ram..mb..hd, I dont have to ship it back to microsoft to fix it. I fix it myself! This in addition to the onslaught of great pc games coming: Dragon Age, Diablo 3, Saced 2, Divine Divinity 2, Dead Space, Fallout 3, Far Cry 2..list goes on and on. Anyone think that people will think twice before invesing in Microsofts new next next gen system 2 years from now?

Oh, and then there is the Mame emulator with all the kickass CHDs!

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Does anyone know how Microsoft is fixing the RROD problems? Are they putting those new Jasper chips in them? If not, what guarantee that this won't happen again to those XBoxs that got repaired.

Originally posted by gnovak1
Does anyone know how Microsoft is fixing the RROD problems? Are they putting those new Jasper chips in them? If not, what guarantee that this won't happen again to those XBoxs that got repaired.[/quote:

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They are replacing the mobo's with either new or refurbished mobo's.

...then again with all the multiple failures people are experiencing, maybe they are doing what the good news/bad news sergeant told the troops:

Men, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that we all get a change of underwear today.

The bad news is Jones, you change with Smith, Smith you change with Rogers....

Originally posted by varnull:

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I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

M$ handled the situation badly to begin with.. but this lawsuit is a real no go.. they will string it out and laugh all the way to the bank. This is the kind of stupidity which keeps lawyers in business.. Every faulty console is an item in it's own right.. and a customer complaint x 1.. The judge will probably throw it out as normal consumer laws cover all these problems.

If people want to bring a class action against M$ then why not pick something worthwhile.. Like antitrust and compulsory bundling of software and operating systems through kickback manipulation and collusion with retailers?

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well if you read the news properly it is self explanatory as to why the class action is being bought to M$.if my memory serves me correctly there was an outcry from many consumers and even some of the manafacturers making parts for the 360 that it should be re-called as the failure rate was extremely high,even M$ admitted that there was a problem and blamed the contracted parts manafacturers for their product and had informed the consumers that it was being rectified,the RROD.it seems as though they may have sorted it out now by upgrading to the elite(although the earlier elites were prone to RROD as well and then they phased in the new bundles.IMO all stock from release date to back to late last year should have been scrapped.so i can see why this class action is being bought forward and should of been done a year or 2 ago.

Originally posted by chubbyInc:

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In other news Microsoft has slashed prices on the consoles through Dell.
$169 for Arcade,
$249 for Pro, and
$329 for Elite.

I had RROD on first machine and wasn't covered under warranty.
second machine had RROD sent it in for free got back a new machine.
Seems to work fine now.

Too many people in here all flamed up over nothing.
As for that lawsuit, I don't think there is probable grounds to proceed. Xbox is fixing their mistakes at their cost.

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not good enough....as a consumer you don't care about your rights? i have had 3 xbox360's fail on me and i know of people that are up to #7..as i said in a previous post,get rid of the old stock and replace with the new stock that is "supposedly" been rectified of the RROD

Originally posted by varnull:

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I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

M$ handled the situation badly to begin with.. but this lawsuit is a real no go.. they will string it out and laugh all the way to the bank. This is the kind of stupidity which keeps lawyers in business.. Every faulty console is an item in it's own right.. and a customer complaint x 1.. The judge will probably throw it out as normal consumer laws cover all these problems.

If people want to bring a class action against M$ then why not pick something worthwhile.. Like antitrust and compulsory bundling of software and operating systems through kickback manipulation and collusion with retailers?

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As usual you manage to hit the nail on the head Varnull- another excellent post. I personally think 1% is a bit low but perhaps you're not far wrong.

What disturbs me most about the article is it's astonishing lack of information. Who exactly is bringing in the lawsuit. Is it a consortium of disgruntled owners or is it just an individual? "California is seeking an order that "Microsoft disgorge all profits attributable to its sale of the Xbox 360, as well as that Microsoft publicly announce and implement a refund program in California..." ". It kind of sounds like the state itself is doing it!! Perhaps $ony are behind it. They wouldn't care if they lost- it's good publicity.

I guess people forget a gaming console is not quite like a normal appliance. M$ were desperate to establish an install base to and get the platform up and running. You have to factor in the consequences of such a thing... it's not simple at all. If they knew how bad it was perhaps they felt it was worth it anyway.

I tend to think they didn't know how bad it would be. For several reasons. One, they would have moved faster on the 3yr warranty. Two, they would have made sure they returned better replacements- and this I believe is where the real problem lies; creating unexpected enormous goodwill issues.

Articles/books have been written citing the lack of electronic factory testing as the problem. But as someone that repairs consoles for a living, I can tell you that it comes down to the building up of heat from placing the optical drive directly above the GPU. The mainboard warps (to a certain unpredictable manner) popping the chips. The springs under the heatsinks contribute to this as well. Sure you can use towels and heatguns even replace the springs with screws but the flux/solder situation coupled with a tendency of a weakened board to warp more readily makes it pretty much a temporary solution at best. Eventually a board can warp permanently (I've seen some bad ones). They got their calculations wrong- a borderline heat issue would escalate under heavy workload to an excessive one! They probably just didn't want believe it, pointing to the sheets of figures hoping it was just aberrations- "that shouldn't be happening my calcs don't lie" scratching their heads.

For those that really want to know, the Falcon models have different arrangement. A cooler CPU and an extra piped heatsink running from the GPU to a more open area in the unit. Maybe the mainboard composite material has been changed too- I don't know I suspect it has. My Falcon unit is still working fine.

Naysayers should be aware that (former) heat issues aside the X360 is a very excellent gaming platform for those who like sturdy controllers and don't want the hassle or expense of PC gaming. Coupled with the backlog of great games they own and the friends they've accumulated online it's no wonder they come back... give them a break already, they're not as stupid as you like to make out. Running your game off the hard drive after the new update may also alleviate heat stress- probably why they're allowing it.

Over-enthusiastic PS3 owners aught to consider (but they won't) that it's optical drive assembly is not that well made and a great many will need fixing/replacing (certainly after warranty expiration) within a 3 year period. But take heart that it's easily remedied- but not particularly cheap.

yes they screwed up, they have fixed it. inconvenience yes, lawsuit material no. the fact is no matter the rrod it is still a better system than the ps3, and all of you will still buy microsoft products. this lawsuit will do nothing but make the average price for a game or piece of software increase. its always funny how we sue then we gripe when games cost so much, or cars, or insurance, or medical, or..................... you hurt general public in the end. i had rrod and complained they fixed my xbox and sent me a free game, and controller. they also extended warranty on my xbox pro and elite at no cost. sony told everyone to eat it when 2.4 release corrupted there systems. oh wait did they fix all of them at no cost hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. similair, amazing. leave m$ alone your just pissed because you didnt think of it and they have a pile of money and its all because of you. nice.

Originally posted by russtafa:

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yes they screwed up, they have fixed it. inconvenience yes, lawsuit material no. the fact is no matter the rrod it is still a better system than the ps3, and all of you will still buy microsoft products. this lawsuit will do nothing but make the average price for a game or piece of software increase. its always funny how we sue then we gripe when games cost so much, or cars, or insurance, or medical, or..................... you hurt general public in the end. i had rrod and complained they fixed my xbox and sent me a free game, and controller. they also extended warranty on my xbox pro and elite at no cost. sony told everyone to eat it when 2.4 release corrupted there systems. oh wait did they fix all of them at no cost hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. similair, amazing. leave m$ alone your just pissed because you didnt think of it and they have a pile of money and its all because of you. nice.

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There is so much misinformation and unsupported opinion in this post it's not even worth trying to discuss anything as it would end up not being a discussion.

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Originally posted by varnull:

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I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

M$ handled the situation badly to begin with.. but this lawsuit is a real no go.. they will string it out and laugh all the way to the bank. This is the kind of stupidity which keeps lawyers in business.. Every faulty console is an item in it's own right.. and a customer complaint x 1.. The judge will probably throw it out as normal consumer laws cover all these problems.

If people want to bring a class action against M$ then why not pick something worthwhile.. Like antitrust and compulsory bundling of software and operating systems through kickback manipulation and collusion with retailers?

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As usual you manage to hit the nail on the head Varnull- another excellent post. I personally think 1% is a bit low but perhaps you're not far wrong.

What disturbs me most about the article is it's astonishing lack of information. Who exactly is bringing in the lawsuit. Is it a consortium of disgruntled owners or is it just an individual? "California is seeking an order that "Microsoft disgorge all profits attributable to its sale of the Xbox 360, as well as that Microsoft publicly announce and implement a refund program in California..." ". It kind of sounds like the state itself is doing it!! Perhaps $ony are behind it. They wouldn't care if they lost- it's good publicity.

I guess people forget a gaming console is not quite like a normal appliance. M$ were desperate to establish an install base to and get the platform up and running. You have to factor in the consequences of such a thing... it's not simple at all. If they knew how bad it was perhaps they felt it was worth it anyway.

I tend to think they didn't know how bad it would be. For several reasons. One, they would have moved faster on the 3yr warranty. Two, they would have made sure they returned better replacements- and this I believe is where the real problem lies; creating unexpected enormous goodwill issues.

Articles/books have been written citing the lack of electronic factory testing as the problem. But as someone that repairs consoles for a living, I can tell you that it comes down to the building up of heat from placing the optical drive directly above the GPU. The mainboard warps (to a certain unpredictable manner) popping the chips. The springs under the heatsinks contribute to this as well. Sure you can use towels and heatguns even replace the springs with screws but the flux/solder situation coupled with a tendency of a weakened board to warp more readily makes it pretty much a temporary solution at best. Eventually a board can warp permanently (I've seen some bad ones). They got their calculations wrong- a borderline heat issue would escalate under heavy workload to an excessive one! They probably just didn't want believe it, pointing to the sheets of figures hoping it was just aberrations- "that shouldn't be happening my calcs don't lie" scratching their heads.

For those that really want to know, the Falcon models have different arrangement. A cooler CPU and an extra piped heatsink running from the GPU to a more open area in the unit. Maybe the mainboard composite material has been changed too- I don't know I suspect it has. My Falcon unit is still working fine.

Naysayers should be aware that (former) heat issues aside the X360 is a very excellent gaming platform for those who like sturdy controllers and don't want the hassle or expense of PC gaming. Coupled with the backlog of great games they own and the friends they've accumulated online it's no wonder they come back... give them a break already, they're not as stupid as you like to make out. Running your game off the hard drive after the new update may also alleviate heat stress- probably why they're allowing it.

Over-enthusiastic PS3 owners aught to consider (but they won't) that it's optical drive assembly is not that well made and a great many will need fixing/replacing (certainly after warranty expiration) within a 3 year period. But take heart that it's easily remedied- but not particularly cheap.

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maybe it is the retailers themselves bringing the class action against M$ ?? i know for a fact down under retailers are very unhappy with M$ return policy (due to our consumer laws)you have to do it M$'s way or not have a console at all,they want total control over their product even after a consumer has purchased their product,M$ has no right to refuse a customers demands if they are not happy with a product especially under a warranty period(depending on state laws)you say you fix consoles for a living ?yet you don't know the lay out of the new falcon setup ? thats calling the pot black isn't it.
It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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Oddly M$ knew they have a cooling related problem from the word go. They were very interested in liquid cooling as a possible way to solve the problem, or at least the console R&D department were.. No doubt considering even at release they were making a loss on every unit sold the accountant scuppered that one.

I completely understand retailers being upset with the attempt to undermine consumers statutory rights with a restrictive and in many countries downright illegal returns policy, but the blame doesn't fall totally on M$ in that case either. The retailers have a responsibility to uphold local trading laws, not the manufacturers.. If they were unhappy then why in hell did they stock the device in the first place?... they have the leverage to force a manufacturer to shape up and follow local laws.. or they don't stock the item unless they do..

It's no good them whining all this time later.. They took the profits from the sales and then passed the buck using the M$ returns policy as an excuse in many cases to take your money and run.

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maybe it is the retailers themselves bringing the class action against M$ ?? i know for a fact down under retailers are very unhappy with M$ return policy (due to our consumer laws)you have to do it M$'s way or not have a console at all,they want total control over their product even after a consumer has purchased their product,M$ has no right to refuse a customers demands if they are not happy with a product especially under a warranty period(depending on state laws)you say you fix consoles for a living ?yet you don't know the lay out of the new falcon setup ? thats calling the pot black isn't it.
It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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WTF?? "Is this the right room for an argument...??"

How much of a clearer explanation for the layout of the Falcon model do you want? Are you accusing me of lying? I notice you didn't give one. You take liberties with logic like you do with punctuation.

Maybe is the operative word because we don't know from the article who is behind it- varnull is right, it's a bit late for the retailers to complain now. Especially since they passed it on- as is the case with the PS3.

I suggested giving X360 owners a break. Where is the hypocrisy in my arguments- because I objectively defended a console platform you don't like? There is already a market in 3rd party do-it-yourself replacement optical assembly parts for the PS3. See: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/12/672905. Up to it's twelfth page now and counting.

I complained about the crap returns attitude of M$- get some reading glasses mate. Only an idiot would buy an expensive product like the one's you mentioned and not buy/negotiate an extended warranty for it.

"...make sure the product is faultless for it's life" if you'd added "...of it's warranty" that remark would not sound so oxymoronic.

I don't know any self-respecting Aussie that refers to their own country as "down under". Not even that crap gutter-rag newspaper the "Herald Sun" you've named yourself after.

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It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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Oddly M$ knew they have a cooling related problem from the word go. They were very interested in liquid cooling as a possible way to solve the problem, or at least the console R&D department were.. No doubt considering even at release they were making a loss on every unit sold the accountant scuppered that one.

I completely understand retailers being upset with the attempt to undermine consumers statutory rights with a restrictive and in many countries downright illegal returns policy, but the blame doesn't fall totally on M$ in that case either. The retailers have a responsibility to uphold local trading laws, not the manufacturers.. If they were unhappy then why in hell did they stock the device in the first place?... they have the leverage to force a manufacturer to shape up and follow local laws.. or they don't stock the item unless they do..

It's no good them whining all this time later.. They took the profits from the sales and then passed the buck using the M$ returns policy as an excuse in many cases to take your money and run.

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exactly and thats what my retailer did they replaced console for me as they were sick of M$ tactics and for the inconvenience caused by M$ i received an elite unit. retailers down here know our statutory rights and act accordingly if you talk to the right person.I.E not the owner of the buisness the C.E.O of the buisness thats where the job gets done let the C.E.O deal with M$ .....M$ want their product stocked so basically the retaily holds the strings.

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maybe it is the retailers themselves bringing the class action against M$ ?? i know for a fact down under retailers are very unhappy with M$ return policy (due to our consumer laws)you have to do it M$'s way or not have a console at all,they want total control over their product even after a consumer has purchased their product,M$ has no right to refuse a customers demands if they are not happy with a product especially under a warranty period(depending on state laws)you say you fix consoles for a living ?yet you don't know the lay out of the new falcon setup ? thats calling the pot black isn't it.
It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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WTF?? "Is this the right room for an argument...??"

How much of a clearer explanation for the layout of the Falcon model do you want? Are you accusing me of lying? I notice you didn't give one. You take liberties with logic like you do with punctuation.

Maybe is the operative word because we don't know from the article who is behind it- varnull is right, it's a bit late for the retailers to complain now. Especially since they passed it on- as is the case with the PS3.

I suggested giving X360 owners a break. Where is the hypocrisy in my arguments- because I objectively defended a console platform you don't like? There is already a market in 3rd party do-it-yourself replacement optical assembly parts for the PS3. See: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/12/672905. Up to it's twelfth page now and counting.

I complained about the crap returns attitude of M$- get some reading glasses mate. Only an idiot would buy an expensive product like the one's you mentioned and not buy/negotiate an extended warranty for it.

"...make sure the product is faultless for it's life" if you'd added "...of it's warranty" that remark would not sound so oxymoronic.

I don't know any self-respecting Aussie that refers to their own country as "down under". Not even that crap gutter-rag newspaper the "Herald Sun" you've named yourself after.

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WTF... you are as bad as me, muttering...why should you get an extended warranty..it's only a money grabbing scam ...you know it i know it,if a product is going to fail it will fail with in 12 months as in the case with the 360(by the way are you calling me a sony fan boy ?- because if you are you are way off the mark ) most electronic /appliance companies now offer a 3 year warranty on all products, my microwave has 3 years as does my hi def tv,as well as my chef oven,hell just about every item in my house thats new comes with a 2-3 year warranty with the exception of my consoles. you stated "Maybe the mainboard composite material has been changed too- I don't know I suspect it has. My Falcon unit is still working fine. "
"For those that really want to know, the Falcon models have different arrangement. A cooler CPU and an extra piped heatsink running from the GPU to a more open area in the unit. ".... well this is common knowledge any rate.you need some glasses to mate as you have let everything just fly straight over your forehead *whoosh* and secondly are you accusing me or calling ME a liar about the 360....how the hell would you know....just because i'm not so perfect as you are claiming to be,my grammar whoopy dodah mate wake up and get a life people are all different,it's your type that are really the oxymorons of this world nit picking everything us lower classed citizens have to say,so what if you are into fixing consoles,the way you speak you claim to know evertything about the 360 and from what i have read from your post(s) you are only 3/4's right.
also if your an aussie your one of few that doesn't have a sense of humor about the nicknames given to countries...we are the arse end of the world and it's a fact, all the politically correct minded people sooked when paul keating called us that...
ohh and one more thing whats so expensive about the other equipment i mentioned they may be only $600-$700 dearer in some instances.

PS and by the way do some research, i don't know if it was you that said it but it is a woman in california that is suing M$
and that is just one of a few lawsuits pending.
heres how her case unfolded.
http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti...source=rss_news

read that and tell me the failure rate was less than what...did someone say 1% ??

http://dailygamesnews.com/2008/10/micros...rnia-class.html

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Microsoft-Xb...,news-2779.html

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maybe it is the retailers themselves bringing the class action against M$ ?? i know for a fact down under retailers are very unhappy with M$ return policy (due to our consumer laws)you have to do it M$'s way or not have a console at all,they want total control over their product even after a consumer has purchased their product,M$ has no right to refuse a customers demands if they are not happy with a product especially under a warranty period(depending on state laws)you say you fix consoles for a living ?yet you don't know the lay out of the new falcon setup ? thats calling the pot black isn't it.
It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

---

WTF?? "Is this the right room for an argument...??"

How much of a clearer explanation for the layout of the Falcon model do you want? Are you accusing me of lying? I notice you didn't give one. You take liberties with logic like you do with punctuation.

Maybe is the operative word because we don't know from the article who is behind it- varnull is right, it's a bit late for the retailers to complain now. Especially since they passed it on- as is the case with the PS3.

I suggested giving X360 owners a break. Where is the hypocrisy in my arguments- because I objectively defended a console platform you don't like? There is already a market in 3rd party do-it-yourself replacement optical assembly parts for the PS3. See: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/12/672905. Up to it's twelfth page now and counting.

I complained about the crap returns attitude of M$- get some reading glasses mate. Only an idiot would buy an expensive product like the one's you mentioned and not buy/negotiate an extended warranty for it.

"...make sure the product is faultless for it's life" if you'd added "...of it's warranty" that remark would not sound so oxymoronic.

I don't know any self-respecting Aussie that refers to their own country as "down under". Not even that crap gutter-rag newspaper the "Herald Sun" you've named yourself after.

---

WTF... you are as bad as me, muttering...why should you get an extended warranty..it's only a money grabbing scam ...you know it i know it,if a product is going to fail it will fail with in 12 months as in the case with the 360(by the way are you calling me a sony fan boy ?- because if you are you are way off the mark ) most electronic /appliance companies now offer a 3 year warranty on all products, my microwave has 3 years as does my hi def tv,as well as my chef oven,hell just about every item in my house thats new comes with a 2-3 year warranty with the exception of my consoles. you stated "Maybe the mainboard composite material has been changed too- I don't know I suspect it has. My Falcon unit is still working fine. "
"For those that really want to know, the Falcon models have different arrangement. A cooler CPU and an extra piped heatsink running from the GPU to a more open area in the unit. ".... well this is common knowledge any rate.you need some glasses to mate as you have let everything just fly straight over your forehead *whoosh* and secondly are you accusing me or calling ME a liar about the 360....how the hell would you know....just because i'm not so perfect as you are claiming to be,my grammar whoopy dodah mate wake up and get a life people are all different,it's your type that are really the oxymorons of this world nit picking everything us lower classed citizens have to say,so what if you are into fixing consoles,the way you speak you claim to know evertything about the 360 and from what i have read from your post(s) you are only 3/4's right.
also if your an aussie your one of few that doesn't have a sense of humor about the nicknames given to countries...we are the arse end of the world and it's a fact, all the politically correct minded people sooked when paul keating called us that...
ohh and one more thing whats so expensive about the other equipment i mentioned they may be only $600-$700 dearer in some instances.

PS and by the way do some research, i don't know if it was you that said it but it is a woman in california that is suing M$
and that is just one of a few lawsuits pending.
heres how her case unfolded.
http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti...ss_news

---

Oh, get off your high-horse heraldsun. Your post has more political rhetoric than Churchill on a bender.

If your gonna go scapegoating at least try to back up your statements, have some balls not just act like a martyr. Yeah yeah, that's right I'm perfect- LOL.

I mentioned the Falcon layout because someone asked what the difference was.

Do you even know what oxymoron means??? WHOOSH

If you want people people to take you seriously. Try some grammar ect. so you statements don't just flow into one another in an incoherent mess. It pathetic to use class as an excuse behaving like some reverse snob.

To wit; most manufacturers don't offer a 2-3 years warranty. Many do but it not the norm. My Panasonic HDTV sure didn't. "...you know it i know it,if a product is going to fail it will fail with in 12 months". Not so, I bought a Teac TV a while back which did come with a 3yr and it sure needed it. Good telly, nice picture with RGB scart in- when it worked.

You can't take a statement were I say "I don't know" and remark "...the way you speak you claim to know evertything about the 360" without appearing foolish and just wanting to pick a fight for the sake of it. Are you drunk? It's you that's behaving like the pompous ass.

And if you had glasses... I haven't criticised you personally just your OTT aggressive behaviour. Stop accusing me I stuff I didn't say.

At least you gave a link for for the origins of the suit, and it turns out NOT to be the retailers you postulated earlier.

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maybe it is the retailers themselves bringing the class action against M$ ?? i know for a fact down under retailers are very unhappy with M$ return policy (due to our consumer laws)you have to do it M$'s way or not have a console at all,they want total control over their product even after a consumer has purchased their product,M$ has no right to refuse a customers demands if they are not happy with a product especially under a warranty period(depending on state laws)you say you fix consoles for a living ?yet you don't know the lay out of the new falcon setup ? thats calling the pot black isn't it.
It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

---

WTF?? "Is this the right room for an argument...??"

How much of a clearer explanation for the layout of the Falcon model do you want? Are you accusing me of lying? I notice you didn't give one. You take liberties with logic like you do with punctuation.

Maybe is the operative word because we don't know from the article who is behind it- varnull is right, it's a bit late for the retailers to complain now. Especially since they passed it on- as is the case with the PS3.

I suggested giving X360 owners a break. Where is the hypocrisy in my arguments- because I objectively defended a console platform you don't like? There is already a market in 3rd party do-it-yourself replacement optical assembly parts for the PS3. See: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/12/672905. Up to it's twelfth page now and counting.

I complained about the crap returns attitude of M$- get some reading glasses mate. Only an idiot would buy an expensive product like the one's you mentioned and not buy/negotiate an extended warranty for it.

"...make sure the product is faultless for it's life" if you'd added "...of it's warranty" that remark would not sound so oxymoronic.

I don't know any self-respecting Aussie that refers to their own country as "down under". Not even that crap gutter-rag newspaper the "Herald Sun" you've named yourself after.

---

WTF... you are as bad as me, muttering...why should you get an extended warranty..it's only a money grabbing scam ...you know it i know it,if a product is going to fail it will fail with in 12 months as in the case with the 360(by the way are you calling me a sony fan boy ?- because if you are you are way off the mark ) most electronic /appliance companies now offer a 3 year warranty on all products, my microwave has 3 years as does my hi def tv,as well as my chef oven,hell just about every item in my house thats new comes with a 2-3 year warranty with the exception of my consoles. you stated "Maybe the mainboard composite material has been changed too- I don't know I suspect it has. My Falcon unit is still working fine. "
"For those that really want to know, the Falcon models have different arrangement. A cooler CPU and an extra piped heatsink running from the GPU to a more open area in the unit. ".... well this is common knowledge any rate.you need some glasses to mate as you have let everything just fly straight over your forehead *whoosh* and secondly are you accusing me or calling ME a liar about the 360....how the hell would you know....just because i'm not so perfect as you are claiming to be,my grammar whoopy dodah mate wake up and get a life people are all different,it's your type that are really the oxymorons of this world nit picking everything us lower classed citizens have to say,so what if you are into fixing consoles,the way you speak you claim to know evertything about the 360 and from what i have read from your post(s) you are only 3/4's right.
also if your an aussie your one of few that doesn't have a sense of humor about the nicknames given to countries...we are the arse end of the world and it's a fact, all the politically correct minded people sooked when paul keating called us that...
ohh and one more thing whats so expensive about the other equipment i mentioned they may be only $600-$700 dearer in some instances.

PS and by the way do some research, i don't know if it was you that said it but it is a woman in california that is suing M$
and that is just one of a few lawsuits pending.
heres how her case unfolded.
http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti...ss_news

---

Oh, get off your high-horse heraldsun. Your post has more political rhetoric than Churchill on a bender.

If your gonna go scapegoating at least try to back up your statements, have some balls not just act like a martyr. Yeah yeah, that's right I'm perfect- LOL.

I mentioned the Falcon layout because someone asked what the difference was.

Do you even know what oxymoron means??? WHOOSH

If you want people people to take you seriously. Try some grammar ect. so you statements don't just flow into one another in an incoherent mess. It pathetic to use class as an excuse behaving like some reverse snob.

To wit; most manufacturers don't offer a 2-3 years warranty. Many do but it not the norm. My Panasonic HDTV sure didn't. "...you know it i know it,if a product is going to fail it will fail with in 12 months". Not so, I bought a Teac TV a while back which did come with a 3yr and it sure needed it. Good telly, nice picture with RGB scart in- when it worked.

You can't take a statement were I say "I don't know" and remark "...the way you speak you claim to know evertything about the 360" without appearing foolish and just wanting to pick a fight for the sake of it. Are you drunk? It's you that's behaving like the pompous ass.

And if you had glasses... I haven't criticised you personally just your OTT aggressive behaviour. Stop accusing me I stuff I didn't say.

At least you gave a link for for the origins of the suit, and it turns out NOT to be the retailers you postulated earlier.

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yeah...yeah...whatever,why don't you just stop your muttering as well and get off your high horse.haha of course your not going to get a 2-3 yr warranty with panasonic,they never have offered such a warranty and probably never will :) i never explicitly said all manafacturers offer 2-3 yr warranty although a majority do.
also i used the general term most things will go wrong with in the 12 month warranty period this was a generalisation as it usually does but not always. more fool you if you want to look at it in tunnel vision and nit pick someone out over that.

this is what i mean "If you want people people to take you seriously. Try some grammar ect. so you statements don't just flow into one another in an incoherent mess. It pathetic to use class as an excuse behaving like some reverse snob."
so what about my grammar thats not what we are debating or discussing.isn't it suppose to be about a lawsuit and M$? your the one talking like snob .mate it's all in black and white,you are what we term a smart arse,you can twist and turn all you want,you said what you said i said what i said,ok sure i did say retailers ...(maybe)but i was incorrect in my statement,I failed to corrcet myself as your personal attack on me with this and that and my grammar prevented me from doing so that why i included links in my last 2 posts...at least i researched prior to picking on someone about their grammar,c'mon wheres your balls ? come out and say you didn't say that !
and just another link on the issue.
http://taylorflatt.instablogs.com/entry/...ulty-xbox-360s/

Originally posted by varnull:

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I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

M$ handled the situation badly to begin with.. but this lawsuit is a real no go.. they will string it out and laugh all the way to the bank. This is the kind of stupidity which keeps lawyers in business.. Every faulty console is an item in it's own right.. and a customer complaint x 1.. The judge will probably throw it out as normal consumer laws cover all these problems.

If people want to bring a class action against M$ then why not pick something worthwhile.. Like antitrust and compulsory bundling of software and operating systems through kickback manipulation and collusion with retailers?

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we will have to wait and see.did you read my links ? very interesting and i don't think it will go away for M$

Jemborg (Junior Member) 30 October 2008 23:24

"I mentioned the Falcon layout because someone asked what the difference was. " [End Quote]
first off my apologies for the way i have quoted.
that is what you stated as above about the falcon layout.I am only playing your game once (nit picking) where in any of these posts did you explain to someone about it because they wanted to know,all i saw was a generalisation on your part, they didn't ask the difference at all.

What-ever.

Originally posted by varnull:

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I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

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I laugh at people like you so you were one of the only people to have a stable console on launch. Mine had RROD 30mins from removing from the packaging. 7 consoles later and I am now trying an Elite. I have one friend on his 13th and another on his 9th with the average being 4. How you can sit there with fake figures and hapily say its 0.3% is beyond me.
How many time over the past 2yrs has M$ come out with figures which have been laughed out the door for not being as accurate as they were making out?

Just read through the posts here.

I wonder how many of you complainer even have Xbox360?
having gone through the RLOD, Xbox was quick to accept and exchange my xbox free of charge. I received a new system, a lot of people are getting refurbished thats unfortunate, but at least they can still send them back if they get the problems again. But what do people really think they will get out a class action suit? There money back and a new system?

Originally posted by chubbyInc:

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Just read through the posts here.

I wonder how many of you complainer even have Xbox360?
having gone through the RLOD, Xbox was quick to accept and exchange my xbox free of charge. I received a new system, a lot of people are getting refurbished thats unfortunate, but at least they can still send them back if they get the problems again. But what do people really think they will get out a class action suit? There money back and a new system?

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you didn't read the article did you ? it's like a trust fund for the state of california,if they win the laws suite it's got nothing to do with moaning it's about the product and M$ deception or maybe a better word,knowing they were bound to have faulty consoles,not quite the words i was looking for but is close enough, It's a trust fund for the public not just a single person or company.

Originally posted by chubbyInc:

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I wonder how many of you complainer even have Xbox360?

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Have you even been through aD's 360 forum area? We have a regular that had like 10 broken 360's all documented (amongst many hundreds more)! Hell I just caught my 3rd RLOD/RROD just the other day!