Blu-ray players sell almost 13:1 against HD DVD

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!! Better not let hughjars hear about this! It will only make him......[um]...... sad and BLU.

"Oh! Oh! The BLU MEANIES are coming!!!!"

I wonder is this just regular blu-ray players or is it including the ps3? Well anyways this is good news for blu-ray, but it really is not looking good for HD DVD. This must be somewhat dramatic to supporters of HD DVD.

Oh and I never knew Mods act like that. It's kinda cool to see... I think.

Originally posted by rainofire:

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I wonder is this just regular blu-ray players or is it including the ps3?

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The NPD numbers do not include the PS3 and are for standalones only.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa149.html

Quote:

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Okay... so the latest hardware sales data from market research firm NPD Group is in, and it reveals that - as one would expect - HD-DVD player sales have also been impacted by the news of Warner's decision to drop the format later this year. One quick note: The data that follows does NOT include sales of Sony's PlayStation 3 or the HD-DVD add-on drive for Microsoft's Xbox 360. These are stand-alone, set-top players only.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by rainofire:

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I wonder is this just regular blu-ray players or is it including the ps3?

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The NPD numbers do not include the PS3 and are for standalones only.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa149.html

Quote:

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Okay... so the latest hardware sales data from market research firm NPD Group is in, and it reveals that - as one would expect - HD-DVD player sales have also been impacted by the news of Warner's decision to drop the format later this year. One quick note: The data that follows does NOT include sales of Sony's PlayStation 3 or the HD-DVD add-on drive for Microsoft's Xbox 360. These are stand-alone, set-top players only.

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Thats strong right there good to see that people are moving past this so called Format War & seeing that we all server the same purpose...We All want movies on HD period.

Well i have now seen the vid that confirms the end

http://www.shoutfile.com/v/mkzEREZK/The_Downfall_of_HD-DVD

RIP HD DVD.

Those charts are selected for those particular weeks for a reason.

If they had shown anything other than that you would not be seeing simplisitic little pie charts that get the Blu-ray fanclub going all gooey.


Wake up to the manipulation.

'Oh look. a pretty coloured graph' duuuuuuuh, well that proves it'

The truth is that if they really had taken a genuine & sustaned lead they'd be showing stats & graphs covering several weeks if not a couple of months - or a whole quarter.

They'd not be realying on articles lifted from 'Bill - the obvious Blu-ray shill - Hunt's' stuff.

6 million Blu-ray movie sales in almost 2 years, in a market that sees overall sales of 750 million+. Not even 1% of the market.
That's the only stat that really matters.

Blu-ray has won nothing.

Even if toshiba makes a press conference and say that they stop HD-DVD production, you will still saying that Blu-lay have won nothing and HD-DVD will won the war.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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They'd not be realying on articles lifted from 'Bill - the obvious Blu-ray shill - Hunt's' stuff.

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The numbers didn't come from Bill Hunt. They came from the NPD Group which has been doing market research and analysis since the 1960's.

If you have numbers from the NPD Group (hardware) and Nielsen Videoscan (software) then you can be sure that you have the most reliable and the most impartial data in the business.

There's no manipulation here like you claim. Just the hard data.

Originally posted by A_Klingon:

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Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!! Better not let hughjars hear about this! It will only make him......[um]...... sad and BLU.

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You were completly right you know.

http://my.afterdawn.com/dsgtrain/blog_entry.cfm/2630

No.

What we have here is a classic case of denial.

The game console format has won nothing.

The stats I gave are from the BDA themselves.

Blu-ray have (in almost 2 years) sold 6 million movie discs.

In a movie disc market that saw 750 million+ sales last year alone.

Blu-ray do not have even 1% of the total disc market.

For as long as that situation remains then it is perfectly true to say Blu-ray have won nothing and they certainly have not excaped the game console niche.

......and for as long as that situation remains HD DVD has every chance of winning this.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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Those charts are selected for those particular weeks for a reason.

If they had shown anything other than that you would not be seeing simplisitic little pie charts that get the Blu-ray fanclub going all gooey.


Wake up to the manipulation.

'Oh look. a pretty coloured graph' duuuuuuuh, well that proves it'

The truth is that if they really had taken a genuine & sustaned lead they'd be showing stats & graphs covering several weeks if not a couple of months - or a whole quarter.

They'd not be realying on articles lifted from 'Bill - the obvious Blu-ray shill - Hunt's' stuff.

6 million Blu-ray movie sales in almost 2 years, in a market that sees overall sales of 750 million+. Not even 1% of the market.
That's the only stat that really matters.

Blu-ray has won nothing.

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It just doesn't matter what the statistics say, you're just in denial buddy. Everything you say is so repetitive. Even with stats showing you and pie charts glaring you in the eyes you're still in denial. God help you.

There are many people that are enjoying the benefits of HD but the vast majority aren't because it's too expensive. New TV, new Blu-Ray player, and new movies equals alot of money for people that are probably happy with their existing dvd player and 480p TV. Hell my mother-in-law still buys and rents VHS tapes. DVD couldn't compete with VHS in it's first year or two. Duh.

This sucks, but I guess Blu-ray has won. Don't know why people would waste money on garbage and DRM but then again I dont know why American Idol is one of the most popular Tv shows. Must mean most people are idiots.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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No.

What we have here is a classic case of denial.

The game console format has won nothing.

The stats I gave are from the BDA themselves.

Blu-ray have (in almost 2 years) sold 6 million movie discs.

In a movie disc market that saw 750 million+ sales last year alone.

Blu-ray do not have even 1% of the total disc market.

For as long as that situation remains then it is perfectly true to say Blu-ray have won nothing and they certainly have not excaped the game console niche.

......and for as long as that situation remains HD DVD has every chance of winning this.

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It's ok little buddy, no need to get all worked up...

Originally posted by plutonash:

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This sucks, but I guess Blu-ray has won. Don't know why people would waste money on garbage and DRM but then again I dont know why American Idol is one of the most popular Tv shows. Must mean most people are idiots.

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lol :) Very true! I'm all for HDDVD but I suppose the war is almost over!

hughjars:

You seem to forget that DVD has had an almost 10-year headstart over HD media and has probably >100 million installed players worldwide. DVD is the most successful media product in history.

How can you expect a high def format that was launched less than 2 years ago to even compare to that. It's just unreasonable to expect BluRay's numbers to even approach that of DVD this early in the game. In the same vein it's also unreasonable to expect HD DVD's numbers to compete with regular DVD at this time.

The important thing for BluRay at this moment is not the overall market but the high-def market.

>100 million? probably more than that in the usa alone. 1,000,000,000 is a more realistic number and probably still far short. Any idea how many people live on this poor planet?? 6,602,224,175 (July 2007 est.) I have more than 1 dvd player.

The real way to test the penetration of either of these disk formats into the home market is to compare the number of players sold to the number of HD and HD-ready(rip off) tv's.

There are probably a million in the UK now.. and if everybody who bought one also went and got a blu-ray player.. and just 1 film.. that would account for around 17% of the TOTAL blu-ray sales..

People are not adopting this new format.. I think they are happy with the quality from dvd, and are waiting to see if broadcasters and cable companies go hi-def before committing themselves to a huge investment in a world heading for a massive recession.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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hughjars:

You seem to forget that DVD has had an almost 10-year headstart over HD media and has probably >100 million installed players worldwide. DVD is the most successful media product in history.

How can you expect a high def format that was launched less than 2 years ago to even compare to that. It's just unreasonable to expect BluRay's numbers to even approach that of DVD this early in the game. In the same vein it's also unreasonable to expect HD DVD's numbers to compete with regular DVD at this time.

The important thing for BluRay at this moment is not the overall market but the high-def market.

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He has also said that the ps3 was a flop. even though the ps3 sold more consoles in its first year that the 360 did.


and why do you keep calling it a game console format? when there are more blu-ray standalones in consumers hands than hd-dvd? you would praise microsoft if they included the hd-dvd drive in the 360. and you cant say you wouldnt. Microsoft was dumb not to include a hd or even blu drive in their console. they will reach the limits of the dvd here real quick.


so does that make dvd a game console format? if i recall correctly that the ps2 was the dvd player that helped bring it to the masses. and every game console uses it now. dont be upset its ok, you win some you lose some.

Originally posted by varnull:

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>100 million? probably more than that in the usa alone. 1,000,000,000 is a more realistic number and probably still far short.

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Agreed. This proves my point even more.

*Note: I am neutral in this "format war" as well as the "console war"

<OT>Rip on hughjars all you want but at least he stick to his opinion and defends it. There are plenty of people that wouldn't go this far to support their opinion.

The only thing I can say to you hughjars is: just keep presenting facts and don't let all of these negative comments effect what you say. If you let them upset you and/or you insult them back, no facts will save your arguement. Let them look like an idiot, not you.
<End OT>

Not to insult anyone but if you think that anything is over, you are wrong. You should all know by reading Afterdawn articles that business can change their policies on a dime or whim with little or no reason that we would know of. Who says that movie studios won't switch back over? You don't know. Heck, I don't know either. It can still go either way. The only way we will is when one of the formats say that they will stop producing their disks. Period, end of story.

I bet 99% of those is PS3's. Think about it at Best Buy if you buy a big screen tv they'll give you a Blu-Ray player or a PS3 for free which also comes with 5 or more free Blu-Ray movies.HD-DVD has not had a new movie release in about 3 to 4 weeks that's another reason they're getting stomped.

Originally posted by pomelo:

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I bet 99% of those is PS3's.

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Nope. The NPD numbers are for standalone players only and do not include the PS3 and the 360 addon. See my 1st post above.

Quote:

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HD-DVD has not had a new movie release in about 3 to 4 weeks that's another reason they're getting stomped.

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HD DVD has had several new releases:

January 15, 2008
The Ten (City Lights)

January 08, 2008
Mobsters (Universal)
The Pianist (Universal)
White Noise (Universal)
White Noise 2 (Universal)
Zodiac: Director's Cut (Paramount)

December 26, 2007
The Heartbreak Kid (DreamWorks)
Pan's Labyrinth (New Line)

December 23, 2007
Cat People (1982) (Universal)
Eastern Promises (Universal)
The Kingdom (2007) (Universal)
Timecop (Universal)

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates_historical.html

Originally posted by hughjars:

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Those charts are selected for those particular weeks for a reason.

If they had shown anything other than that you would not be seeing simplisitic little pie charts that get the Blu-ray fanclub going all gooey.


Wake up to the manipulation.

'Oh look. a pretty coloured graph' duuuuuuuh, well that proves it'

The truth is that if they really had taken a genuine & sustaned lead they'd be showing stats & graphs covering several weeks if not a couple of months - or a whole quarter.

They'd not be realying on articles lifted from 'Bill - the obvious Blu-ray shill - Hunt's' stuff.

6 million Blu-ray movie sales in almost 2 years, in a market that sees overall sales of 750 million+. Not even 1% of the market.
That's the only stat that really matters.

Blu-ray has won nothing.

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blah blah talkin out your ass.at first you supported hd-dvd but whne they win the hd format war you switch back to dvd all of a sudden.you cant lose graciously.bro admit it,even the mods here are sayin BLU.those numbers dont even include ps3 which u seem to say is the only thing that helped blu-ray.brapppppppp watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frZTf3mX97c&feature=related

I'm not investing in either format for movies yet. My upconverter does a great job on my 26" Olevia 1080i television. I'll be getting a 42" 1080p LCD television this year, but I will probably do the same thing - Upconvert. Even if I end up getting a PS3 this year I will not be buying any Blu-Ray movies. Doesn't help either camp when Best Buy offers upconverters as an incentive to buy HDTV's. It's easier and safer to push televisions than it is to back either of these 2 formats.

How many people are really buying 50" or > plasmas in this economic decline? Seems like an excess to have during these hard times - cost of oil and food. Also seems like a cut from the Fed may do little to help the US economy and the whole world is going to feel it.

Originally posted by ikari:

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if you think that anything is over, you are wrong. You should all know by reading Afterdawn articles that business can change their policies on a dime or whim with little or no reason that we would know of.

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- Precisely (and thank you ikari).

When the truth is that Blu-ray have sold only 6 million movie discs in almost 2 years in a market that sees annual sales of 750 million+ then all these tales of winning anything are just invention.

It's all just 'drop in the ocean' stuff.

It doesn't matter that it's a slightly larger 'drop in the ocean' than that HD DVD is showing right now,
the central point is that 97% of nothing is still almost nothing.

The rest is just the usual noise to attempt to talk-up and encourage 'momentum'
(which has been a Blu-ray trademark all the way through this).

The title of this article sums up, IMHO, what Hughjars has been, and is still, saying:

Blu-ray players sell almost 13:1 against HD DVD

That's a 13 times lead in favor of BD....

BUT....

Movie sales in BD format are not even TWICE as high as the sales in HD-DVD format.

So yeah, BD is coming out the 'winner' so far in hardware sales but it is not equating out to anywhere near a comparable amount of disc sales.

So some studios have made a decision to support only BD in an attempt to end the 'war'. But WHY? The answer is to make more money by steering the consumer market to one format which also eases those undecided people's minds that the war is over and their soon to be purchased format will not go the way of BetaMax.

BUT if BD hardware sales keep going up AND there is not an equitable amount of increase in movie sales some of these studios MAY rethink their position (and their lost sales by going solo format) and either switch completely or become dual format themselves and cash in on whatever profits they can from both formats.

Is this a sure thing? Nope
Is this a possible thing? Yep
Is the war over? Nope
Does it look like it's over? To Some People

Let me remind everyone here that many historical battles have looked like a win only to find their victory snatched from their hands.

And for the record: I don't own either format

Quote:

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He has also said that the ps3 was a flop. even though the ps3 sold more consoles in its first year that the 360 did.

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Please tell me your joking! I thought even the stupidity of blu fan boys had its limits.

Originally posted by duckNrun:

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Movie sales in BD format are not even TWICE as high as the sales in HD-DVD format.

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Market share of HD movies:



Top 10 HD discs:

lmao

Originally posted by ikari:

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Not to insult anyone but if you think that anything is over, you are wrong. You should all know by reading Afterdawn articles that business can change their policies on a dime or whim with little or no reason that we would know of. Who says that movie studios won't switch back over? You don't know. Heck, I don't know either. It can still go either way. The only way we will is when one of the formats say that they will stop producing their disks. Period, end of story.

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You are terrible wrong, cause if BD keep this pace, in 2 months (at the most)even companies wouldent be able to turn the situation around.
Remember that we are talking about Sony, and sony isnt toshiba.
Sony can, and have proved many times that has some great power, sony even managed to turn Warner Blu, some say with money, some say with good management , either way Sony has accomplished there goal thats the point.
If this numbers keep up HD-DVD would be a hero if manages to stay alive till the end of february.

Quote:

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Originally posted by duckNrun:

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Movie sales in BD format are not even TWICE as high as the sales in HD-DVD format.

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Market share of HD movies:



Top 10 HD discs:

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I'm confused.... are you making my point for me or arguing against it? LOL

Let's look at each of the graphs you posted:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Week ending 1/13

HDDVD = 15%
BD = 85%

WOW... looking good here! Of course one week doesn't really show the true picture. I once made $10,000 in one week. Did I end the year making over 1/2 a million? Nope. The other 51 weeks do, after all, count. But true to say they were stomped that week. But again not many great movies in either format that week IMHO
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Year to Date

HDDVD = 26%
BD = 74%

Just under a 3:1 lead in favor of BD. So 3x as many BD discs sold as HD-DVD. Still not looking bad for BD until you again read the title of this article saying a 13:1 lead in HW sales. 3:1 is better than less but still nowhere near reflecting the amount of HW sold which predicts the amount of discs potentially to be bought
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Since Inception

HDDVD = 37%
BD = 63%

Let's do the math for everyone here. 37 times 2 = 74. What is the percentage for BD? 63. Is 63 greater than or less than 74? Hmmmm... I think it is less than. That means that BD discs have sold less than twice the amount of HD DVD discs sold even though HD DVD HW is 1/13 the unit sales.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So while it is a 'win' of sorts for BD to go from selling just under twice as many discs with 13x the hardware sold to selling 3x as many discs in this year that is still a negative sales difference of 10 TIMES the hardware sales.

Now on a tangent:

Let's remember that a movie player is not considered, by most people, as a product they buy if they do not plan on supporting that purchase with movies to play on it. However in this case it appears to be doing exactly that. People are buying BD but not buying the movies (which is where the movie studios make their money btw). What this means is that most people who buy BD buy less movies per unit capita than their HD DVD counterparts do.

As for the chart showing the top 10 sales being all BD let me simply say:

I would freaking HOPE so when they have 13 TIMES the hardware units sold. No one here is saying that HD DVD is selling more movies than BD with a 1/13th hardware ownership only that they are selling more than their market share when compared to the number of units of BD in people's homes.

That stat is virtually meaningless. It would be like saying that out of 13 million McDonalds and only 1 million Burger Kings that McD's sells more fries than burger king. OF COURSE THEY DO.... it's a numbers game. The shocker would be to say that even with 13M McD's and 1M BK's that BK commands 33%-50% of the market share of fast food diners. If this were a real restaurant situation with these numbers you would see MANY MANY MANY McDonald's being closed down and turned into PayDay Loans businesses instead!

Stats are easy to fudge and even easier to confound. I.E. stats show that as ice cream sales increase so do the number of deaths by drowning. It is ridiculous to say ice cream is causing people to drown it is accurate to say that the stats are meaningless and the variables used had some confounding factor the number crunchers didn't take into account-- or ignored so as to make the numbers say what they wanted them to.

ducknrun:

I guess I need to clarify the news item for you.

The 13:1 ratio is sales of standalones for the week ending 1/12/2008.

Other hardware/standalone numbers from NPD and Toshiba are discussed very well in error5's post here:

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/4/616251

To summarize:

On October 9th, 2007 Toshiba claimed it had 53% of standalone sales (Q1 to Q3 of 2007).

During their CES 2008 conference Toshiba showed a pie chart showing their share of the standalone market had diminished to 49.3% - this covers the entire year of 2007.

NPD released numbers that showed BluRay had 60% of the standalone sales in December 2007 - the busiest shopping month of the year.

NPD numbers also showed a 69:31 lead for BluRay standalones during the first 2 weeks of 2008.

The 13:1 ratio for standalone sales (92.5% to 7.5%) was for the week ending 1/12/08 and is considered a direct result of the Warner announcement declaring bluRay exclusivity.

The 85:15 ratio for the week ending 1/13/08 for software sales was also a direct result of the Warner announcement.

duckNrun: I agree with juankerr.

These new numbers for standalone sales and software sales have to be taken within the context of the Warner announcement.

It was the Warner announcement that sent shockwaves through the HDM industry and turned the HD market upside down.

BTW, I don't believe in attachment rates and I don't think the studios pay much attention to it too. What matters to them is their bottom line.

Quote:

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Originally posted by ikari:

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if you think that anything is over, you are wrong. You should all know by reading Afterdawn articles that business can change their policies on a dime or whim with little or no reason that we would know of.

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- Precisely (and thank you ikari).

When the truth is that Blu-ray have sold only 6 million movie discs in almost 2 years in a market that sees annual sales of 750 million+ then all these tales of winning anything are just invention.

It's all just 'drop in the ocean' stuff.

It doesn't matter that it's a slightly larger 'drop in the ocean' than that HD DVD is showing right now,
the central point is that 97% of nothing is still almost nothing.

The rest is just the usual noise to attempt to talk-up and encourage 'momentum'
(which has been a Blu-ray trademark all the way through this).

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you keep going on about hd disc sales being so small compared to dvd but as ive said before dvd was in the same boat when it was first released, blu-ray and hddvd have sold roughly 9 million discs between them, in the first 2 years dvd was around it sold 9.2 million discs

ok blu-ray disc sales are small but give it time, you cant expect millions of people to just overnight go out and ditch dvd and buy dozens of blu-ray films, we are not gonna know for another 2 years if blu-ray sales are gonna be anywhere near dvd sales after it had been out for 4 years, and you have to remember it took dvd over 5 years to overtake vhs, so blu-ray still has to be given time

I have to give it to duckNrun for talking about HD-DVD in a positive manner and at the same time not ripping Blu-Ray to pieces by making retarded claims like some people...

I'm not mentioning any names...

I see Warner have shifted a little.

Quote:

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Warner extends HD DVD support

Burbank (CA) - Warner Home Video announced this week that it will continue to release titles on HD DVD for three weeks longer than it originally anticipated.


Earlier this month, Warner said that it is going to stop supporting HD DVD in May. However, it has now decided to push that deadline back a few weeks to be able to release more of its upcoming titles on both formats.

Despite Warner's Blu-ray exclusivity announcement, over a dozen Warner titles are still slated for release on HD DVD over the next four months. The extension of HD DVD support confirms that Twister and Bonnie & Clyde will come out on both formats instead of being Blu-ray exclusives.

Some other notable Warner titles that will still be released on both formats include Justice League: The New Frontier, I Am Legend, and August Rush.

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http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35741/98/

- I know it's not much but a significant shift is still a significant shift.

Let's just see how dependable a post-dated move really is when we come to it.

Now why would they even do this much if it was all done & dusted and HD DVD had lost already, hmmmmmmm?!

Originally posted by hughjars:

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- I know it's not much but a significant shift is still a significant shift.

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This is because upcoming Warner BluRay titles are what's called timed exclusives. They are released 3 weeks ahead of the HD DVD version and are day and date with the DVD version.

For example:

I Am Legend will be released on BluRay and DVD on March 18.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1336/iamlegend.html

The HD DVD release is scheduled 3 weeks later for April 8.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1337/iamlegend.html

The tree-week extension is just to let the HD DVD releases catch up with the BluRay ones.

This 3-week delay includes catalog titles:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/W...log_Titles/1386

According to HDD the last dual format title for Warner will be Twister - BluRay for May 6th and HD DVD for May 27th.

Warner will still be BluRay exclusive after all the scheduled HD DVD titles are released.

juankerr, so we agree on what the charts were saying-- more BD HW than HD DVD HW. More BD Discs sold than HD DVD discs. BD disc sales are not equivalent to the amount of HW currently sitting on peoples shelves (sitting idly gathering dust or not resulting in sales for BD content-- which does the studios no good).

Vinny thanks for the compliment :-)


And the increase of BD HW sales most likely was affected by Warner's annnouncement. By extension and increase in HW sales SHOULD increase SW sales as well.

What is not clear is what affect this will have in say two weeks from now. One could theorize that the sudden increase in sales was because Warner's plan worked and now mass adoption of BD, and HD, are coming into full swing.

However, one could also argue that the jump in sales was from the early adopters, and others, jumping the HD DVD ship and rebuying their stuff in BD format. Early adopters are known to want the 'latesat and greatest' faced with their belief that HD DVD was dying the best time to sell off their HD DVD SW and HW would have been already past. Next best thing is to sell fast and sell now to get the most money back as possible before the HD DVD crash hits (not my belief btw just debating the point). More mainstream consumers could have heard the news and had the same idea. I am sure that lots of places will still accept Christmas returns on the HW. The movies sell on eBay and rebuy them, or others, in BD.

A boost in sales is expected when 'major' news is announced. And for those people looking for the 'winning format' or hearing about this could consider this to be major news-- thus kick starting them into their buying.

But what happens when this group's demand is fullfilled? What about the other 51 weeks so to speak. IF 8% (the amount of HD DVD owners compared to the total of HD owners) are buying 33% of the HD movies what happens if the HD DVD HW buyers increase to 12% (A 50% increase in HD DVD HW)? If these new buyers follow the trend of the other HD DVD owners they will increase this 33% disc sales up to 50% of the discs sold in either format.

There is more to the 'big picture', more to the truth behind the numbers than just HW sales. If HD DVD continues to undersell BD but sells almost as much, as much, or more SW than BD even with the huge difference in devices in the home that will be big news. And SOMEONE will eventually have to take a look at that. Movie studios are by nature greedy, profit driven enterprises and can only shirk aside a sizeable portion of their prospect consumers for so long. Right now total HD sales are so minimal as to not even make much of a difference. But it will not be this way forever.

Nice the landslide is building momentum toward the poor HDVD village.

Nice to see the personal attacks continuing.....

Originally posted by ikari:

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Not to insult anyone but if you think that anything is over, you are wrong. You should all know by reading Afterdawn articles that business can change their policies on a dime or whim with little or no reason that we would know of. Who says that movie studios won't switch back over? You don't know. Heck, I don't know either. It can still go either way. The only way we will is when one of the formats say that they will stop producing their disks. Period, end of story.

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Bang on target! It's not over 'til it's completely over, and I doubt that the insults traded here are going to influence how long it'll be before either side relents.

As far as the figures go at the moment, I'd not read too much into it just yet. BD will undoubtedly be enjoying a honeymoon period with TW's exclusivity deal still fresh in everyone's minds, but a week is a long time in politics as they say (and it's obvious that all the decisions made in this format war are either political or commercial).

This "War" is only that because certain elements of the media (and maybe the odd forum user or two) have chosen to make it that way and keep pushing that one format eventually must win. What we're seeing is some deeply anti-competetive moves by both camps which have ultimately been bad for the consumer and equally for the smaller film producers who - if it transpires that Blu-ray eventually "Win" - are likely to end up having to pay higher duplication costs, simply because there's no alternative but to use Sony's duplication equipment (I've worked in the duplication industry before and I have a fairly good idea how it works).

I'll just continue to buy the movies I like in HD. I wanted Zodiac, so I bought it on HD DVD even though people are saying it's a dead format. I don't think this whole thing has anything to do with what people prefer beyond what movies they like. Release something like The Bourne Ultimatum everyweek and you'll get an HD victory. It's pretty simple.

Originally posted by duckNrun:

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juankerr, so we agree on what the charts were saying-- more BD HW than HD DVD HW. More BD Discs sold than HD DVD discs. BD disc sales are not equivalent to the amount of HW currently sitting on peoples shelves (sitting idly gathering dust or not resulting in sales for BD content-- which does the studios no good).

By extension and increase in HW sales SHOULD increase SW sales as well.

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I think it's difficult to gauge a format's succes based on attach rates. You can't really say that a format is not doing well if disc sales are "not equivalent to the amount of HW." I can think of a couple of reasons for this:

> There's no way of knowing if someone who buys a player is a new owner or someone who is on his 2nd or even 3rd machine.

I know of people on both sides who have 2 or even 3 players. In this forum I know error5 and eatsushi both have two HD DVD players each. You don't expect these people to buy more than one copy of a movie, right?

This in itself makes attachment rates useless.

>Software sales are driven by titles. If a movie that has done well in the box office gets released then you expect an uptick in numbers. Take for example the weeks when Transformers, Spiderman3, Bourne, and Pirates 3 were released. The good titles also have strong 2nd week and later sales.

After the Warner announcement the only significant titles were 3:10 to Yuma on BD and Zodiac on HD DVD.

You also need to take into consideration the effect of special offers, price reductions and BOGO's.

Quote:

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But what happens when this group's demand is fullfilled? What about the other 51 weeks so to speak. IF 8% (the amount of HD DVD owners compared to the total of HD owners) are buying 33% of the HD movies what happens if the HD DVD HW buyers increase to 12% (A 50% increase in HD DVD HW)? If these new buyers follow the trend of the other HD DVD owners they will increase this 33% disc sales up to 50% of the discs sold in either format.

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This is where the effect of the Warner announcement will be seen.

Take your scenario for example: Just because HD DVD HW buyers increases to 12% doesn't mean they'll be able to increase HD DVD's software market share to 50%. It could happen if the playing field was level - meaning if all titles were available on both formats.

With majority of studios and majority of titles on BluRay's side I highly doubt that HD DVD will be able to garner 50%. Last year with Warner still dual format HD DVD wasn't able to do it even while holding the lead in standalone sales. They lost all 52 weeks of 2007 plus the last 2 weeks of 2006. Now that Warner is with BluRay their chances of getting 50% are diminished even further.

HD DVD player sales continue to do very very well (as we can see on the Amazon USA stats - which I'll take over any 'commissioned' research any day).

We also can see plenty of HD DVD owners on the various forums making it clear that their HD DVD players upscale so well that if a movie is unavailable on HD DVD they will simply buy the SD DVD instead.

That's why the SD DVD/Blu-ray split is so relevant to all of this - even if Blu-ray tie up a majority of movie studios.

Not only do HD DVD owners have a decent alternative if the movies they want are not available on HD DVD (or HD DVD imports) but this all helps ensure that Blu-ray will not be going anywhere & certainly not escaping the game console niche.

That's why only 6 million movie disc sales in 2 years compared to a movie disc market with 750 million + sales is so relevant.

It's all just 'drop in the ocean' stuff, no matter how much the fanclub wish to try and talk it up.

Only HD DVD can offer Twin discs or combo discs which ensure no-one gets left behind or hurt by the switch to high def.

Blu-ray cannot do this.
It is the anti-consumer choice for the vast majority of consumers.

I haven't heard much good about the combo discs myself. I've got quite a few friends who say they crack on the SD side and are only playable on HD. I don't know how they're made or anything like that, but my friend says that he's convinced they must be glued together considering they crack so easily.

Here's some clarification from NPD:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6524995.html?desc=topstory

For the full year of 2007 the standalone breakdown is as follows:

HD DVD - 49%
BluRay - 49%
Dual Format - 2%

This does not include the PS3.

They also give their reason for the sudden 93:7 ratio for the week ending 1/12/08:

Quote:

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NPD attributed the results largely to promotions run by several Blu-ray supporting manufacturers, and said they were not necessarily the result of reaction to the news that Warner Bros. would be dropping support of HD DVD to go exclusively with Blu-ray in May.

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Quote:

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HD DVD player sales continue to do very very well (as we can see on the Amazon USA stats - which I'll take over any 'commissioned' research any day).

---

The above 2007 numbers from NPD demonstrate how totally unreliable amazon rankings are because they're just that - rankings. Amazon's rankings are useless in predicting actual unit sales, volumes and market share. Besides it's only one online retailer.

The Neilsen Video Scan and NPD numbers are gathered from numerous B&M and online sources (including amazon) and are raw point-of-sale numbers. Hence, they are much more reliable.

Now this is interesting:

http://www.cclonline.com/news/newsArticl...983&tid=cclnews

Toshiba 'leads standalone Blu-ray market'

Quote:

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International electronics technology giant Toshiba has established itself as the leading manufacturer of stand-alone Blu-ray machines, according to a recent report on the state of the next-generation DVD industry.

Data compiled by the DisplaySearch company has found that when it comes to standalone Blu-ray machines, Toshiba is currently dominating the market and accounts for 64 per cent more worldwide sales than all of its competitors combined.

---

;)

Originally posted by juankerr:

---

In addition the NPD report above shows that:
>Toshiba is indeed on or near the bottom in hi-def revenue, despite having the largest share of sales.
>Even combos are beating HD DVD players in sales revenue
>Even if they had equal sales for all of 2007, Blu-ray made more money
>Combos still aren't the wave of the future, with roughly the same market share from the last year
>Sony no longer has a monopoly on Blu-ray standalones

---

@juankerr: Just to clarify, these refer to the second week of 2008 right?

Originally posted by error5:

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Originally posted by juankerr:

---

In addition the NPD report above shows that:
>Toshiba is indeed on or near the bottom in hi-def revenue, despite having the largest share of sales.
>Even combos are beating HD DVD players in sales revenue
>Even if they had equal sales for all of 2007, Blu-ray made more money
>Combos still aren't the wave of the future, with roughly the same market share from the last year
>Sony no longer has a monopoly on Blu-ray standalones

---

@juankerr: Just to clarify, these refer to the second week of 2008 right?

---

You're right - my bad.

I'll edit the post. Here's the actual quote from the article:

Quote:

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Leading brands in the category during that period were: Sony (34 percent unit share, 32 percent dollar share); Panasonic (27 percent unit share, 30 percent dollar share), Sharp (23 percent unit share, 22 percent dollar share), Toshiba (7 percent unit share, 4 percent dollar share), Samsung (6 percent unit share, 6 percent dollar share) and LG (2 percent unit share, 4 percent dollar share).

---

well i am not surprised because blu-ray has warner now.

Peace

Originally posted by hughjars:

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We also can see plenty of HD DVD owners on the various forums making it clear that their HD DVD players upscale so well that if a movie is unavailable on HD DVD they will simply buy the SD DVD instead

---

lol, that means absolutely NOTHING. so basically Blu-ray loses out on 1 million consumers (AT BEST, certainly a much lower number) compared to the several HUNDRED MILLION potential consumers. read below as i mention the affordable players hitting the market....

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

Not only do HD DVD owners have a decent alternative if the movies they want are not available on HD DVD (or HD DVD imports) but this all helps ensure that Blu-ray will not be going anywhere & certainly not escaping the game console niche.

---

ummm when you think about the recent LEAP in sales and consider the upcoming Walmart Blu-ray player that'll retail for $249, i think Blu-ray is going to escape from your "Game Console Niche" afterall.

hopefully hardware sales don't continue with that ratio for too long as your going to be running out of arguments. lots of luck if blu-ray standalones catch up to hd-dvd numbers.

kick someone while they r down huh? we all know BRD is kicking ass & because of the ps3 i get it wr all get it! i still own an hd dvd player & movies! oh well!

Originally posted by juankerr:

---

For the full year of 2007 the standalone breakdown is as follows:

HD DVD - 49%
BluRay - 49%
Dual Format - 2%

This does not include the PS3.

---

So i guess this put to rest all the claims that Blu-Ray is a gaming format only BS.I bet this is what made Warner make the jump to Blu-Ray without any money.

Originally posted by juankerr:

---

The above 2007 numbers from NPD demonstrate how totally unreliable amazon rankings are because they're just that - rankings. Amazon's rankings are useless in predicting actual unit sales, volumes and market share. Besides it's only one online retailer.

The Neilsen Video Scan and NPD numbers are gathered from numerous B&M and online sources (including amazon) and are raw point-of-sale numbers. Hence, they are much more reliable.

---

I never put faith in Amazon numbers because they are not the leading HD retailer so i would take there numbers with a grain of salt no matter how people tried to twist there numbers into there favor.

Great posts juankerr,eatsushi,& error5 thanks for clearing up the big picture to what really going on & not number twisting.

I like the way Hughjars and the HD-DVD Patrol just completely ignore any facts and figures that show Blu-Ray clearly in the lead when it comes to the format war.

AND YES it is a FORMAT WAR, not a "game console war", what on Earth are you talking about?

Last time I checked these two formats can be played in standalone players, game consoles and PC's, so it is a "Format War" my friend, no need to play on words to make yourself look better.

The point all of you are missing is the amount of financial backing and corporate power the two formats have and how much of a beating they are prepared to take in the format war. It's all about attrition.

You have to see it from that perspective:
The Blu-Ray Disc Association has over 70 members. Their exclusive electronics supporters include:
Sony, Sharp, LG Electronics, Dell, HP, Kenwood, FujiFilm, JVC, Panasonic, Philips, Hitachi, Samsung, compared to the six or so measly manufacturers exclusively backing HD-DVD.

Blu-Ray Disc Association members secured 30.2% of the USA's DVD market share, Sony, Fox and MGM three of their biggest studio supporters own 46.1% of the current title base, when it you look at it from that viewpoint that's a big gap compared to HD-DVD which has as of yet failed to secure anything more 5% of the market share.

The point I'm trying to make is, Blu-Ray has got legs. All of Blu-Ray's associated partners have got the money and the power to keep Blu-Ray alive even when it is losing out on sales. They have stamina, HD-DVD simply can't take such a great loss for so long. And throwing money at HD-DVD is risky at best currently considering they haven't broken even on title sales for a few weeks now.

In the end, no matter how superior or much one format deserves to win it all comes down to money. The Blu-Ray alliance can throw endless amounts of cash to promote and distribute BD without it affecting them while HD-DVD has to rely on customer intuition and knowledge to garner support.

And that's about as effective as relying on Voodoo Curses, considering how intelligent the average consumer is today; they can bought into anything...

Shhhhsh

Nobody mention NPD's connection to Time Warner.

HDs got more players than BluRay. Toshibas better and got more things in their HD players.

HD will win bcause its got more players and more movies and more fans like hugjars. Just see the petitiononline.

Riiight, excellent points there:

-Toshiba IS better.

-They have more standalone players.

-They have more "fans" (i.e. Fanboys on AD).

-And an online petition with 20,000 signatures is enough to convince CEO's and executives to change their market strategy.

I suppose I should believe you because....
your a nice guy?

Originally posted by hughjars:

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Nobody mention NPD's connection to Time Warner.

---

I haven't heard of any connection b/w NPD and Time Warner. Maybe you can provide us a link.

I do know that Toshiba is a big time client of NPD. Jodi Salley, Toshiba's Director of Marketing, Digital A/V Group and one of their speakers at this year's CES, talks about how Toshiba uses NPD's data and services:

http://npd.com/corpServlet?nextpage=clients-accolades_s.html
http://www.npdinsights.com/corp/enewslet...4/close_up.html

Quote:

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NPD: From your perspective, what have been the greatest benefits of using NPD sales and marketing information?

Toshiba America Consumer Products (Jodi Sally): NPD information provides a view of the current market situation, based on consumers’ purchasing trends. Using the information helps us understand the market environment so we can plan our marketing strategy most effectively.

NPD: How is NPD market information used at different levels at Toshiba?

Toshiba America Consumer Products: As the director of marketing, I use the information not only to track our current performance, but also to plan for the future by watching particular product trends.

NPD: Can you provide a specific example of a challenge that NPD’s market information has helped your company address?

Toshiba America Consumer Products: With NPD’s sales and marketing information, I have been able to track the sales trends by price and features for a specific category. It has been particularly useful in understanding the commodization of the DVD player.

NPD: What would you say to manufacturers or retailers considering NPD’s market information services?

Toshiba America Consumer Products: The service is essential for both marketing executives and product planning. Our NPD Techworld account representative is most knowledgeable about NPD’s services, and has walked me through exercises and tables to get the business solutions I need. She is always available to provide professional, courteous service. Quite frankly, I don’t know what I would have done without her.

---

I'm sure Toshiba used NPD's standalone data when Toshiba presented this slide at CES 2008:

The Nielsen Videoscan numbers are out for the week ending January 20th:

Week: 83: 17
YTD: 76: 24
SI: 64: 36




BluRay wins again and there are still no HD DVD titles in the top 10.




http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom012708/index.php

Lol... buh-bye HD-DVD

LMAO

Well like I said, the revisions and explainations would come soon enough and they have.

Blu-ray sales were not up at all.

Freebie Blu-ray players bundled with TVs were the overwhelming reason why Blu-ray player numbers had a lift.

Naturally after the Warner pledge HD DVD numbers fell
(but as we can see from Amazon USA HD DVD hardware numbers have gone right back up again. - tho you can be pretty sure that there won't be a - highly unusual and irregular - weeks numbers leaked to report that fact).

We can also be certain now that with NPT not recording Walmart's numbers the 90,000 HD DVD units Walmart sold on Black Friday would have comfortably put HD DVD in the lead with hardware sales in 2007.

(the NPD numbers show this as an even split with HD DVD & Blu-ray on 48% with the dual players taking the other 2%).

Quote:

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NPD clarifies Blu-ray's market share the week after Warner went Blu
Posted Jan 25th 2008 10:35AM by Ben Drawbaugh
Filed under: Industry, Blu-ray, HD DVD

Some were very quick to crown Blu-ray the winner when we learned that the Blu-ray player owned 93 percent of the HD movie market the week after Warner went Blu.

Evidently the numbers were leaked and the NPD group was quick to respond in an attempt to clear things up. As expected, some we're just as quick to discount the Blu-ray success -- which is just as silly as saying the numbers alone mean Blu-ray has won.

Two things happened that week that we're not so sure could continue forever; HD DVD sales were down, and Blu-ray sales were up.

With some help from a a few promotions (free player with a new TV) -- stand-alone Blu-ray player sales were up 30 percent (22k, up from 15k) -- but this alone wasn't enough to shift HD DVD share from 40 percent down to 7.

HD DVD only sold 1,758 stand-alone players during the same week, compared to 14,558 the week before.
So while Blu-ray was up 30, HD DVD was down 88 percent.

So it isn't that the Blu-ray sales were all that spectacular, but instead it was that HD DVD sales were way down.

At this point it doesn't mean anything, but if it continues for more than a month then that's whole another story entirely.

---

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/25/npd...-went/#comments

Interesting that this weeks numbers show an improvement in the HD DVD movie disc numbers - despite all the efforts of the Blu-ray propaganda machine to shout down anyone who says HD DVD's not dead on every outlet they can.

(Time Warner is NPD's parent company for those who didn't know)

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

Interesting that this weeks numbers show an improvement in the HD DVD movie disc numbers

---

Given the significant price drop on the players (and the amazon rankings) I was expecting HD DVD's number to jump to at least 30% or more - at least something closer to the 60:40 we saw last year.

Quote:

---

(Time Warner is NPD's parent company for those who didn't know)

---

I requested a link in my post above. As I've said Toshiba is a big client of NPD and likely supplied their numbers for the CES 2008 presser.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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Given the significant price drop on the players (and the amazon rankings) I was expecting HD DVD's number to jump to at least 30% or more - at least something closer to the 60:40 we saw last year.

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- Why?

The focus has clearly been on getting players out there for now, not movies (as the emphasis on upscaling ought to have indicated).

With all high def sales so tiny (not even 1% of the annual movie disc total) they are hardly the big deal in any of this right now.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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I requested a link in my post above.

---

- I was something I read recently.

If it's correct & I can prove it with a link I will, if it's not & I can't I will say so.

BLAH BLAH BLAH, so what, this is the numbers you get when Blu-ray gives away FREE players.

Originally posted by Franster:

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I haven't heard much good about the combo discs myself. I've got quite a few friends who say they crack on the SD side and are only playable on HD. I don't know how they're made or anything like that, but my friend says that he's convinced they must be glued together considering they crack so easily.

---

I have rented a bunch of dual-sided disks (HD-DVD/DVD) from NetFlix. Every disk gets played both ways. Not one has ever presented a problem in either format. And these are rental disks. Also have several disks I purchased of same type. Again, no problems. As to what your friend says...Huh?

I really have no idea what those guys at Warner can be thinking. You have two formats. One format's player can be had by the consumer for 1/2 or less the cost of the other's. There is no difference in terms of image quality between the two. Arguably, the less expensive format player has better sound capability and every one of the cheaper player's is easilly upgradable over the internet - not true with the other player. So they go with the more expensive format that will limit sales (many people simply will not pay over $150 for a player...many will not pay over $100) of their movies.

It is an irrational choice. If King Gillette had thought like these guys, we'd still be using straight-edge razors. Dumb. Really dumb.

Originally posted by nopcbs:

---

I really have no idea what those guys at Warner can be thinking. You have two formats. One format's player can be had by the consumer for 1/2 or less the cost of the other's. There is no difference in terms of image quality between the two. Arguably, the less expensive format player has better sound capability and every one of the cheaper player's is easilly upgradable over the internet - not true with the other player. So they go with the more expensive format that will limit sales (many people simply will not pay over $150 for a player...many will not pay over $100) of their movies.

It is an irrational choice. If King Gillette had thought like these guys, we'd still be using straight-edge razors. Dumb. Really dumb.

---

I can see 3 things 1 more space in time, 2 better "protection", 3 BR prices will halve in 15 months.

its the same reason why sony launched the PS3 over priced and took damage to their rep, corporate logic FTW....

Let's see, we're going into a recession (likely), Wal-Mart buyers are very price sensitive, there are already a Blu Ray players on the market at $280, and Wal-Mart is going to bring out a $250 player? BFD. That is still way too much. When they (or anyone) introduces a Blu Ray player at $150 that is not a piece of junk, come back and let me know. Then I will go out and buy one. Not before.

- nopcbs

Quote:

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Originally posted by hughjars:

---

We also can see plenty of HD DVD owners on the various forums making it clear that their HD DVD players upscale so well that if a movie is unavailable on HD DVD they will simply buy the SD DVD instead

---

lol, that means absolutely NOTHING. so basically Blu-ray loses out on 1 million consumers (AT BEST, certainly a much lower number) compared to the several HUNDRED MILLION potential consumers. read below as i mention the affordable players hitting the market....

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

Not only do HD DVD owners have a decent alternative if the movies they want are not available on HD DVD (or HD DVD imports) but this all helps ensure that Blu-ray will not be going anywhere & certainly not escaping the game console niche.

---

ummm when you think about the recent LEAP in sales and consider the upcoming Walmart Blu-ray player that'll retail for $249, i think Blu-ray is going to escape from your "Game Console Niche" afterall.

hopefully hardware sales don't continue with that ratio for too long as your going to be running out of arguments. lots of luck if blu-ray standalones catch up to hd-dvd numbers.

---

The more space thing is (1) not really true as Toshiba keeps upping the capacity of the HD-DVD format and sometimes even exceeds the then-current Blu Ray capacity, and (2) not an issue - who cares except the technology for technoloky sake freaks or people who want rewritable optical storage, both formats have ample storage capacity as it is.

As to "protection" which is to say anti-consumer razor-wire, you are right. And that may very well be it, although at the moment it would be totally insane (cost of media alone) to think about copying any kind of high def DVD...other than the commercial pirates, maybe, and they will not long be disuaded by any copy protection scheme.

As to the price drop, well that would be nice, but it is pure speculation, and while I hope it is true (Let's face it, Sony did win this thing.), I strongly doubt it. The Blu Ray camp may end up winning the battle and losing the war if downloadable HD if Jobs is right. I just know that I will NOT buy any Blu Ray player at over $150.

- nopcbs

**********************************************************************

Quote:

---

Originally posted by nopcbs:

---

I really have no idea what those guys at Warner can be thinking. You have two formats. One format's player can be had by the consumer for 1/2 or less the cost of the other's. There is no difference in terms of image quality between the two. Arguably, the less expensive format player has better sound capability and every one of the cheaper player's is easilly upgradable over the internet - not true with the other player. So they go with the more expensive format that will limit sales (many people simply will not pay over $150 for a player...many will not pay over $100) of their movies.

It is an irrational choice. If King Gillette had thought like these guys, we'd still be using straight-edge razors. Dumb. Really dumb.

---

I can see 3 things 1 more space in time, 2 better "protection", 3 BR prices will halve in 15 months.

its the same reason why sony launched the PS3 over priced and took damage to their rep, corporate logic FTW....

---

The more space thing is (1) not really true as Toshiba keeps upping the capacity of the HD-DVD format and sometimes even exceeds the then-current Blu Ray capacity, and (2) not an issue - who cares except the technology for technoloky sake freaks or people who want rewritable optical storage, both formats have ample storage capacity as it is.

As to "protection" which is to say anti-consumer razor-wire, you are right. And that may very well be it, although at the moment it would be totally insane (cost of media alone) to think about copying any kind of high def DVD...other than the commercial pirates, maybe, and they will not long be disuaded by any copy protection scheme.

As to the price drop, well that would be nice, but it is pure speculation, and while I hope it is true (Let's face it, Sony did win this thing.), I strongly doubt it. The Blu Ray camp may end up winning the battle and losing the war if downloadable HD if Jobs is right. I just know that I will NOT buy any Blu Ray player at over $150.

- nopcbs

**********************************************************************

Quote:

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Originally posted by nopcbs:

---

I really have no idea what those guys at Warner can be thinking. You have two formats. One format's player can be had by the consumer for 1/2 or less the cost of the other's. There is no difference in terms of image quality between the two. Arguably, the less expensive format player has better sound capability and every one of the cheaper player's is easilly upgradable over the internet - not true with the other player. So they go with the more expensive format that will limit sales (many people simply will not pay over $150 for a player...many will not pay over $100) of their movies.

It is an irrational choice. If King Gillette had thought like these guys, we'd still be using straight-edge razors. Dumb. Really dumb.

---

I can see 3 things 1 more space in time, 2 better "protection", 3 BR prices will halve in 15 months.

its the same reason why sony launched the PS3 over priced and took damage to their rep, corporate logic FTW....

---

Blu-ray has got this in the bag :)

Does anyone here own a Blue-ray player ? If so ... Do ALL of your movies play with NO problems ? Because I have a Toshiba HD-A30 player and there's several movies that won't play (or some get hung-up at a certain place on the disc)...and when calling Toshiba support...they only say that I should install the latest Firmware version(which I have ! ). and if this doesn't work then I'd have to wait for their technicians(programmers) to program new Firmware to correct these problems individually for each and every movie that is reported as to having problems.
.....Now that Toshiba has pulled out of the 'race'(the HD market) ...I guess this support and firmware updating is now non-existent.
*** Do any Blue-ray Players need constant Firmware upgrades to correct 'playing' issues with particular movies or are the Blue-ray players error-free ?

**** and BTW to the posting ABOVE with the sports car.....
What kind of car is that ??? Can it really do 100MPH in 3.1 sec. ???
Thanks.......Later-from-the-Skater